Endless belt and release physics

[Mike O]

Mike

When you refer to an "imaginary point" located "somewhere" between the left shoulder and upper spine as being the "center" of an "imaginary circle" circumscribed by the hands, then I can basically understand your conceptual idea in a certain way. What you are apparently doing is simply taking the hand arc movement => then you are perceiving it as being a circular arc (even though the arc doesn't have a perfectly circular shape) => then you are trying to locate its "central locus point" with respect to the golfer's body ("central locus point" being "equivalent" to the central axis point of the circle that represents the hand circle).

So, for example, here is a diagram showing the movements of the hands, and clubshaft, and clubhead in a low handicap golfer.



Point X is the center of the circle for both the hand arc and the clubhead arc, and one can conceptually think of the angular acceleration of the hands and/or clubhead with reference to that central "X" point (which is conceptually located "somewhere" in the golfer's body).

However, that doesn't help us understand the release phenomenon, because the clubshaft is released (and not the clubhead) with respect to the hands and the clubshaft in that diagram is not rotating in a circular fashion around point X. Therefore, one cannot conceive of the clubshaft having angular acceleration with respect to point "X".

nmgolfer gets around this problem by using the double pendulum swing model.



The double pendulum swing model involves a central arm ( represented by the golfer's conjoined two arms) and a peripheral arm (clubshaft) connected together at a peripheral hinge point. nm golfer's mathematical explanation attempts to explain the release phenomenon occurring at the peripheral hinge point using the following assumptions - i) that the hinge joint is passive and therefore the forces causing the clubshaft's release is passive (not directly related to any active hand unhinging action); ii) and that the clubshaft's movement in space can only be affected by movement of the peripheral hinge point (hands) in space - without having to be concerned about the underlying body forces that cause the hands to move (body forces that torque the central arm). Regarding nm golfer's explanation, the clubshaft can be angularly accelerated at the peripheral hinge point, which serves as the "center" for the angular rotation of the clubshaft around the peripheral hinge point (hands). In other words, the clubshaft rotates around a central point (hands) and therefore the grip end of the club must (by definition) angularly-rotate at the same rpm speed as the clubhead end of the club because the clubshaft is a rigid structure rotating around a central hinge point (although the clubhead end obviously has a faster curvilinear speed than the grip end). In nm golfer's explanation, what's the source of power that allows the clubshaft to develop angular acceleration? It is derived from the fact that the peripheral hinge point (hands) constantly move about in space, and the hand movement has both a directional quality and a velocity quality. The movement of the hands (peripheral hinge point) causes the club to develop angular acceleration, because the movement of the hands is at an angle to the COG of the clubshaft. The clubshaft therefore rotates in a circle relative to the hands, and the angular rpm acceleration of every part of the clubshaft (grip end and clubhead end) must be the same. nm golfer's explanation explains how the club develops angular acceleration with respect to the hands, and how the club releases with respect to the hands. nm golfer's explanation doesn't have to concern itself with "imaginary" locus points - point X in the first diagram.

Jeff.

Jeff,
In the first part of your post above, you accurately describe my previous post i.e. my viewpoint.

However, I still need to get my mind around your viewpoint and also go back and see the purpose of the thread and what we are analyzing here. But in the meantime, I'll make a quick comment regarding your quote below in case you can help me understand where you're coming from.

"However, that doesn't help us understand the release phenomenon, because the clubshaft is released (and not the clubhead) with respect to the hands and the clubshaft in that diagram is not rotating in a circular fashion around point X. Therefore, one cannot conceive of the clubshaft having angular acceleration with respect to point "X". "

I can understand your concept of isolating the clubshaft in relation to the hands and saying that the entire clubshaft has the same angular acceleration- so conceptually I see what you are saying. But I would think that if there was anything that you would say that the clubshaft is release with respect to - it would be the ball- in regards to what forces will be created and not the hands (if that gets the discussion off base in regards to the context that you are discussing - just ignore it for now). Secondly, When you say that the clubshaft in that diagram is not rotating in a circular fashion around point X- therefore....... - you lost me there - looks to me like it is moving in a circular motion around X to me- generally speaking - so IF you wanted to I could see one conceiving of angular acceleration with respect to point X. Enlighten me.

[Jeff]

Mike

You wrote-: "But I would think that if there was anything that you would say that the clubshaft is release with respect to - it would be the ball- in regards to what forces will be created and not the hands (if that gets the discussion off base in regards to the context that you are discussing - just ignore it for now)."

When you want to relate the release of the clubshaft with respect to the ball, then you are discussing a totally different subject. I am simply trying to understand the physics of the release phenomenon - the reason why the clubshaft releases in the mid/late downswing (the reason why power accumulator number #2 releases). It is also equivalent to understanding the physics of the flail release - why the end swingle stick releases when the central stick is swung smoothly along a curved path.

HK used the endless belt analogy to explain the clubshaft's release phenomenon. He uses the analogy of ducks (equivalent to a clubshaft) on a belt at a fairground. The belt travels at constant speed, which means that the ducks (which are attached at their foot-base to the endless belt) travel at the same speed as the belt - during the straight line travel section of the endless belt. When the belt swings around the pulley at either end, then the ducks have to swing around so that their upper end (head-end) travels faster than their lower end (foot-end). In other words, the ducks are angularly accelerated during the time period when the belt (traveling at constant speed) swings around the end pulley. HK's endless belt analogy is a nice visual concept to explain how a club can be angularly accelerated when its attachment point (to the hands) goes around a bend. However, the endless belt concept only makes maximum sense if the attachment point (hands) moves quite abruptly from a straight line path to a curved path (eg. along a J-shaped curve). It doesn't explain how clubshaft release can occur with a C-shaped curve (Bobby Jones swing) or a circular curve (PingMan machine). nm golfers' single mathematical explanation can explain all those release phenomena equally well.

When I stated that the clubshaft cannot be conceived to be rotating in a circular fashion around point "X", I basically meant the following. The concept of angular acceleration of a linear object (rather than a point-object) generally relates the angular movement of the linear object to its "fixed" lower end, which must be at the center of a circle, while the peripheral end is always on the circumference of that circle. In that diagram, point "X" is the center of a circle relating to certain point-objects (hands or clubhead end of the clubshaft), but the linear object (entire clubshaft) has no constant circular rotational relationship to "point X" because an extension line drawn from the butt end of the club doesn't pass through point "X". From my perspective, the concept of angular acceleration of the clubshaft only makes sense with respect to its "fixed" point of attachment - which is at the hands.

Jeff.

[golfguru]

Jeff: Consider the Snap, Randon and Sweep Releases and how the wristcocks act differently. The pulley size changes but there is still a pulley in the wristcock itself.

[Jeff]

Paul

I don't know what you mean when you state that there is a pulley within the wristcock itself.

I also don't know what you mean when you imply that the wristcock acts differently in the different release patterns.

My concept of HK's pulley (in his endless belt analogy) relates to the curvilinear path of movement of the hands over time, and a pulley exists when the hand arc over a short period-of-time becomes particularly curved rather than straight. In a snap release, the hand arc path is very J-shaped with a very small pulley, while in a sweep release it is very C-shaped with a large pulley. The random release pattern has an intermediate pulley size.

Jeff.

[Mike O]

Mike

You wrote-: "But I would think that if there was anything that you would say that the clubshaft is release with respect to - it would be the ball- in regards to what forces will be created and not the hands (if that gets the discussion off base in regards to the context that you are discussing - just ignore it for now)."

When you want to relate the release of the clubshaft with respect to the ball, then you are discussing a totally different subject. I am simply trying to understand the physics of the release phenomenon - the reason why the clubshaft releases in the mid/late downswing (the reason why power accumulator number #2 releases). It is also equivalent to understanding the physics of the flail release - why the end swingle stick releases when the central stick is swung smoothly along a curved path.

HK used the endless belt analogy to explain the clubshaft's release phenomenon. He uses the analogy of ducks (equivalent to a clubshaft) on a belt at a fairground. The belt travels at constant speed, which means that the ducks (which are attached at their foot-base to the endless belt) travel at the same speed as the belt - during the straight line travel section of the endless belt. When the belt swings around the pulley at either end, then the ducks have to swing around so that their upper end (head-end) travels faster than their lower end (foot-end). In other words, the ducks are angularly accelerated during the time period when the belt (traveling at constant speed) swings around the end pulley. HK's endless belt analogy is a nice visual concept to explain how a club can be angularly accelerated when its attachment point (to the hands) goes around a bend. However, the endless belt concept only makes maximum sense if the attachment point (hands) moves quite abruptly from a straight line path to a curved path (eg. along a J-shaped curve). It doesn't explain how clubshaft release can occur with a C-shaped curve (Bobby Jones swing) or a circular curve (PingMan machine). nm golfers' single mathematical explanation can explain all those release phenomena equally well.

When I stated that the clubshaft cannot be conceived to be rotating in a circular fashion around point "X", I basically meant the following. The concept of angular acceleration of a linear object (rather than a point-object) generally relates the angular movement of the linear object to its "fixed" lower end, which must be at the center of a circle, while the peripheral end is always on the circumference of that circle. In that diagram, point "X" is the center of a circle relating to certain point-objects (hands or clubhead end of the clubshaft), but the linear object (entire clubshaft) has no constant circular rotational relationship to "point X" because an extension line drawn from the butt end of the club doesn't pass through point "X". From my perspective, the concept of angular acceleration of the clubshaft only makes sense with respect to its "fixed" point of attachment - which is at the hands.

Jeff.

I understand what you are saying and I see your question/interest in understanding the workings of this - seems like a good issue to understand. I'll review the material and get back to you- if nothing else to just agree with what you've already said in your prior posts.