Hogan - closing clubface

[dkerby]

Jeff, do me a favour. If you would, please shorthen the lines of
the text. I like to print the posts so that I can take them to
the range. When I tried to print this post, the end of the
lines are cut off. In the "printable version" the words are so
small that I can not read them.

Thanks, Donn

[nuke99]

not sure i am absolutely right on this..

but what i have notice is.. Hogan have a pretty upright posture and a very "lowish" arm at the top of the swing, and a mid hand setup.

with that kind of combination he need to rotate his arm to get connected , be on plane and "one plane " position at the top. very similar to what this guy

teach.or sergio. very similar way. more "flattish " shoulder turn.. but in order to stay in sync or connected. he need to turn his arms back and through swing like hogan did... ie a flatter rotated shoulder turn. but rotate arm to stay on plane.

huge amount of lag using this way... due to the increased flexibility.. arm not flexed around the Rotor wrist joint.. at the top.



..

Say if we dont rotate our arms. and a flat shoulder turn. I think we will end up a little like David toms .. Arm have to move higher to stay on plane. ie flat shoulder turn..


and if we dont rotate the arms again , and stay "arm same line as shoulder on the top. while staying connected. we have to Pivot a little like sam snead , Jim hardy OPS or Stack and tilt swing..steeper rotated shoulder turn.

Many ways to skin the cat .. I say its choose your poison.

I think type of shoulder turn vs steepness shoulder turn vs arm rotation vs arm height.. need to be compatible . so that the motion create an on plane swing

Just my 2 cents observations.

[Jeff]

Pistol - you wrote-: "Now TT method of delivering the right hand and releasing against a firm left hand would make a lot more sense rather than the fiction you have stated. How many years you work on a golf swing JEff? Why do you seem to think that the TT concept is not correct after all he was at it for what 60+ years? ITs obvious that it would fit the criteria for the clubface being squared to the arc and the 3 right hands comment by the man himself."

You are free to find TT's idea of the right hand karate-chop throw action interesting and attractive. However, it's astonishing that you are willing to state that it fits in with Hogan's swing. You have provided no "evidence" to support that belief other than Hogan's statement that he wishes he had "three right hands". The reason why I find it astonishing is that you are ignoring Hogan's own statements regarding his swing. You are implying that Hogan utilised an active right arm karate-chop action from the very start of the downswing, thereby implying that the right arm is active when it is well above waist level. That factually-unsupported belief contradicts Hogan's own comments in his "Five Lessons" book.

On page 93 of his book, Hogan wrote-: "What do the hands do? The answer is they do nothing active until after the arms have moved on the downswing to a position just above the level of the hips. The arms don't propel this motion themselves. They are carried down by the movement of the hips". He then goes in the rest of that paragraph to describe how the hands and arms get this "free ride". He also demonstrates this "free ride" phenomenon in his swing video lesson.

In this lesson, Hogan demonstrates unequivocally how the arms/hands are brought passively down to hip level and how the right elbow is brought rapidly down to the right hip area solely as a result of his lower body move. He states unequivocally that this lower body action "brings one in a position to hit". This "hit position" occurs when Hogan's hands are well below waist level. Whatever Hogan meant by "three right hands", it must occur when his hands were in a "position to hit" and not at the start of the downswing - ala Tom Tomasello's description.

This is my last post that will be addressed to you. We live in parallel mental universes and we apparently cannot fruitfully interchange ideas. I am also tired of being subjected to your constant baiting and insults. This forum allows free discourse, and you are free to make insulting ad hominem comments, but I don't have to perpetuate your behaviour by personally responding to your posts.

Jeff.

[Jeff]

Dariusz

I am aware that you a serious student of Hogan's swing.

I therefore find it very surprising to read what you wrote- : "Sorry to say, but when looking at the photos I find it simply not natural that the sharp hip turn caused Hogan's elbow to move that far down."

Look at Hogan's swing video lesson, which you must have looked at many, many times. Are you really not convinced that Hogan's entire power package assembly was brought down to waist level as a result of his rapid lower body action. He demonstrates this "lower body move" repeatedly in this video lesson, and it is so easy to see his entire power package assembly moving as a single unit down to hip level, concurrently with his lower body action. In his "Five lessons" book he makes the same point of how the arms/hands get a "free ride" down to waist level. He is very definite about the upper limbs (arms/hands) being passive in the early downswing.

You also wrote-:"Do an experiment yourself - go to the top with a cupped left wrist and just turn your hips as quick as possible without trying to go low with the clubhead to the ground in urge to hit the ball - just hold the club and turn your hips - you'll observe that your cupped left wrist remains cupped despite the turn."

Of course my left wrist will remain cupped if I deliberately maintain a cupped left wrist. However, my left wrist flattens immmediately if I relax my left wrist and allow the left wrist to passively respond to forces that have a left wrist flattening effect. The key "feeling" is the "feeling" of leaving the club behind while the downswing is initiated. Hogan had ultra-flexible wrists and you can actually see his degree of left wrist lag increasing at the start of the downswing. I believe that the cause of that phenomenon is due to the combination of i) a sudden pull-down of the left arm (secondary to the lower body pivot action that initiates Hogan's downswing) and ii) very relaxed wrists. The likelihood of that "increased lag" phenomenon happening at the start of the downswing would be much more unlikely if Hogan was actively propelling the club downwards by means of a right arm throw action.

Finally, Hogan was a swinger, and HK stated that a swinger's power accumulator release sequence must be 4,2,3. HK never stated that the right arm should be actively throwing/thrusting in a swinger's action, and certainly not before the release of power accumulator #4.

Jeff.

[pistol]

The likelihood of that "increased lag" phenomenon happening at the start of the downswing would be much more unlikely if Hogan was actively propelling the club downwards by means of a right arm throw action.

WRONG

Finally, Hogan was a swinger, and HK stated that a swinger's power accumulator release sequence must be 4,2,3. HK never stated that the right arm should be actively throwing/thrusting in a swinger's action, and certainly not before the release of power accumulator #4.

Jeff.

QUITE a few knowledgeable TGM would disagree that Hogan was a 3 barrel swinger post accident

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz

I am aware that you a serious student of Hogan's swing.

I therefore find it very surprising to read what you wrote- : "Sorry to say, but when looking at the photos I find it simply not natural that the sharp hip turn caused Hogan's elbow to move that far down."

Look at Hogan's swing video lesson, which you must have looked at many, many times. Are you really not convinced that Hogan's entire power package assembly was brought down to waist level as a result of his rapid lower body action. He demonstrates this "lower body move" repeatedly in this video lesson, and it is so easy to see his entire power package assembly moving as a single unit down to hip level, concurrently with his lower body action. In his "Five lessons" book he makes the same point of how the arms/hands get a "free ride" down to waist level. He is very definite about the upper limbs (arms/hands) being passive in the early downswing.

You also wrote-:"Do an experiment yourself - go to the top with a cupped left wrist and just turn your hips as quick as possible without trying to go low with the clubhead to the ground in urge to hit the ball - just hold the club and turn your hips - you'll observe that your cupped left wrist remains cupped despite the turn."

Of course my left wrist will remain cupped if I deliberately maintain a cupped left wrist. However, my left wrist flattens immmediately if I relax my left wrist and allow the left wrist to passively respond to forces that have a left wrist flattening effect. The key "feeling" is the "feeling" of leaving the club behind while the downswing is initiated. Hogan had ultra-flexible wrists and you can actually see his degree of left wrist lag increasing at the start of the downswing. I believe that the cause of that phenomenon is due to the combination of i) a sudden pull-down of the left arm (secondary to the lower body pivot action that initiates Hogan's downswing) and ii) very relaxed wrists. The likelihood of that "increased lag" phenomenon happening at the start of the downswing would be much more unlikely if Hogan was actively propelling the club downwards by means of a right arm throw action.

Finally, Hogan was a swinger, and HK stated that a swinger's power accumulator release sequence must be 4,2,3. HK never stated that the right arm should be actively throwing/thrusting in a swinger's action, and certainly not before the release of power accumulator #4.

Jeff.

Jeff, you presented some valid arguments, no doubt. However, do you really think that Hogan's swing was being powered by lower body action only ? I am more than sure that his right arm/forearm was intentionally involved in his motion. In the same book you quote he wrote "hit the ball with your right hand as strong as possible". Tomasello's theory is very interesting, as I said, because it unifies the right forearm throw with the pivot very soundly.
The more I look into Hogan's swing motion the more I believe in his "three right hands" comment; I think he was "above" those swingers/hitters criteria and sincerely am of the opinion that his downswing was a mixture of a dominant left side of the body (pulling) turboed by right arm/forearm/elbow/hand action.
Now, Tomasello theory that Pistol brought into life in this thread is simply a possible great explanation that I take into accout since there is no many concept how to combine left and right side action during the swing. Many can say that it is not even possible, but it is not true. You can easily combine and synchronize a pulling motion of the main body and correlated pushing motion of a distal part of the same body and it is a very natural thing. Discus throwers or rotational-style ball throwers in lightathletics are a great example of this kind of correlation.


Cheers

[Jeff]

Dariusz

You wrote-: "I am more than sure that his right arm/forearm was intentionally involved in his motion."

How can you be sure? What are you actually seeing in his swing, and at what point of the downswing are you seeing "it" so that you can definitively conclude that Hogan is actively using his right arm/forearm?

You wrote-: "The more I look into Hogan's swing motion the more I believe in his "three right hands" comment; I think he was "above" those swingers/hitters criteria and sincerely am of the opinion that his downswing was a mixture of a dominant left side of the body (pulling) turboed by right arm/forearm/elbow/hand action."

I do not doubt your sincerity as a serious student of Hogan's swing. I just would like to know precisely what you mean when you state that you can see Hogan "using his right arm/forearm/elbow/hand to turbo his downswing." At what point in his downswing do you see this happening, and how can you incontrovertibly conclude that it is an active versus passive phenomenon. When I look at Hogan's swing (as in his swing video lesson) I see an incredibly fast downswing pivot action that throws the left arm off the chest wall with immense force/speed (release of power accumulator #4) in the mid-downswing. I then see his other power accumulators (#2 and #1) release ultra-fast in the late downswing. According to HK, the release of power accumulator #1 is passive in a swinger's action because the clubshaft is traveling so fast after the release of power accumulator #2 that the straightening right elbow simply allows the right forearm to keep up with the released clubshaft. HK seemingly implied that any "push" action by an active release of power accumulator #1 in the late downswing would not be advantageous because the clubshaft is already travelling at optimum speed due to a super-efficient sequential release of power accumulators #4 and then #2. How would an active push action release of power accumulator #1 be advantageous in a swinger who has an optimised swing? Yoda has stated that he can understand the "three right hand" concept as being an optimal isometric contraction of the right forearm muscles and right triceps muscle so that the right forearm can provide optimal support behind the clubshaft in the late downswing and at impact, and in that sense I can understand the "three right hands" concept (as a non-push, "keep-up", support action). However, you are seemingly implying that the right arm/forearm/hand can provide extra push power. The onus is on you to i) demonstrate how that is theoretically possible in a super-efficient swinger's swing (like Hogan's swing which I think can be accurately described as a triple barrel 4:2:3 swing) and ii) how you know with 100% certainty that Hogan is performing that active right hand action.

Jeff.

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz

You wrote-: "I am more than sure that his right arm/forearm was intentionally involved in his motion."

How can you be sure? What are you actually seeing in his swing, and at what point of the downswing are you seeing "it" so that you can definitively conclude that Hogan is actively using his right arm/forearm?

You wrote-: "The more I look into Hogan's swing motion the more I believe in his "three right hands" comment; I think he was "above" those swingers/hitters criteria and sincerely am of the opinion that his downswing was a mixture of a dominant left side of the body (pulling) turboed by right arm/forearm/elbow/hand action."

I do not doubt your sincerity as a serious student of Hogan's swing. I just would like to know precisely what you mean when you state that you can see Hogan "using his right arm/forearm/elbow/hand to turbo his downswing." At what point in his downswing do you see this happening, and how can you incontrovertibly conclude that it is an active versus passive phenomenon. When I look at Hogan's swing (as in his swing video lesson) I see an incredibly fast downswing pivot action that throws the left arm off the chest wall with immense force/speed (release of power accumulator #4) in the mid-downswing. I then see his other power accumulators (#2 and #1) release ultra-fast in the late downswing. According to HK, the release of power accumulator #1 is passive in a swinger's action because the clubshaft is traveling so fast after the release of power accumulator #2 that the straightening right elbow simply allows the right forearm to keep up with the released clubshaft. HK seemingly implied that any "push" action by an active release of power accumulator #1 in the late downswing would not be advantageous because the clubshaft is already travelling at optimum speed due to a super-efficient sequential release of power accumulators #4 and then #2. How would an active push action release of power accumulator #1 be advantageous in a swinger who has an optimised swing? Yoda has stated that he can understand the "three right hand" concept as being an optimal isometric contraction of the right forearm muscles and right triceps muscle so that the right forearm can provide optimal support behind the clubshaft in the late downswing and at impact, and in that sense I can understand the "three right hands" concept (as a non-push, "keep-up", support action). However, you are seemingly implying that the right arm/forearm/hand can provide extra push power. The onus is on you to i) demonstrate how that is theoretically possible in a super-efficient swinger's swing (like Hogan's swing which I think can be accurately described as a triple barrel 4:2:3 swing) and ii) how you know with 100% certainty that Hogan is performing that active right hand action.

Jeff.

Jeff, when i said "I am more than sure" I tried to say that it is my own belief - with due proportions of course, as was Mr.Kelley's belief that one must be either swinger or hitter and that Hogan was a pure swinger; please, do not go into semantics I have utmost respect to Homer Kelley's work, but he did not eat all brains and was not all-knowing person, since he was only a human afterall...

Let me ask one question - have you ever tried to throw a discus ? If not, try it and it shows you more than I can say here in my broken English. Also, observe what happens when a tennis player uses one-handed backhand and compare to a double-handed one.

Pay attention to two things when looking at swing of Hogan:

1) during the second phase of downswing, he squares the clubface while still maintaining huge lag and his right hand goes into sort of palm-down position; I call it the conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag;
how do you explain this phenomenon without an active right arm ? not possible to do it, IMHO, by only pulling with the lead arm since it would bring inevitably his right arm away from his body at impact.

2) what I already said - compare his right elbow move in relation to his pivot - you will observe that his right elbow moves independently (i.e. more than his pivot would suggest); it's easily visible on each post-secret DTL Hogan's swing motion.


Cheers

[Bagger Lance]

This is my last post that will be addressed to you. We live in parallel mental universes and we apparently cannot fruitfully interchange ideas. I am also tired of being subjected to your constant baiting and insults. This forum allows free discourse, and you are free to make insulting ad hominem comments, but I don't have to perpetuate your behaviour by personally responding to your posts.

Jeff.

Jeff,

This forum does not allow free discourse regarding direct personal insults. Passions can and do run high sometimes, but we have forum rules which must be followed. Typically we try to address these issues privately via PM, but if they persist I've had to ban more than a handful of people here. Its the most unpleasant part of running a forum, but unfortunately it must be done at times for the health of the site.

We'll be following the discussions more closely, and if we miss anything please bring it to our attention via PM.

Thanks,

[pistol]

This is my last post that will be addressed to you. We live in parallel mental universes and we apparently cannot fruitfully interchange ideas. I am also tired of being subjected to your constant baiting and insults. This forum allows free discourse, and you are free to make insulting ad hominem comments, but I don't have to perpetuate your behaviour by personally responding to your posts.

Jeff.[/quote]

Jeff
Its IRONIC that you state in your opinion that i have no understanding of human biomechanics cause and effect etc What's more interesting is that in your original analogy you had no understanding and in my first post on this subject i actually leave you an answer for your own theory i.e lifeless left arm with hip turn doing the pulling. Later posts you use this to explain your own theory which seems a little to coincidental to me.
I for one learned from watching TT and the application works and a snap release still occurs in fact its a highest quality snap and the true magic of the right forearm