I am aware that you a serious student of Hogan's swing.
I therefore find it very surprising to read what you wrote- : "Sorry to say, but when looking at the photos I find it simply not natural that the sharp hip turn caused Hogan's elbow to move that far down."
Look at Hogan's swing video lesson, which you must have looked at many, many times. Are you really not convinced that Hogan's entire power package assembly was brought down to waist level as a result of his rapid lower body action. He demonstrates this "lower body move" repeatedly in this video lesson, and it is so easy to see his entire power package assembly moving as a single unit down to hip level, concurrently with his lower body action. In his "Five lessons" book he makes the same point of how the arms/hands get a "free ride" down to waist level. He is very definite about the upper limbs (arms/hands) being passive in the early downswing.
You also wrote-:"Do an experiment yourself - go to the top with a cupped left wrist and just turn your hips as quick as possible without trying to go low with the clubhead to the ground in urge to hit the ball - just hold the club and turn your hips - you'll observe that your cupped left wrist remains cupped despite the turn."
Of course my left wrist will remain cupped if I deliberately maintain a cupped left wrist. However, my left wrist flattens immmediately if I relax my left wrist and allow the left wrist to passively respond to forces that have a left wrist flattening effect. The key "feeling" is the "feeling" of leaving the club behind while the downswing is initiated. Hogan had ultra-flexible wrists and you can actually see his degree of left wrist lag increasing at the start of the downswing. I believe that the cause of that phenomenon is due to the combination of i) a sudden pull-down of the left arm (secondary to the lower body pivot action that initiates Hogan's downswing) and ii) very relaxed wrists. The likelihood of that "increased lag" phenomenon happening at the start of the downswing would be much more unlikely if Hogan was actively propelling the club downwards by means of a right arm throw action.
Finally, Hogan was a swinger, and HK stated that a swinger's power accumulator release sequence must be 4,2,3. HK never stated that the right arm should be actively throwing/thrusting in a swinger's action, and certainly not before the release of power accumulator #4.
The likelihood of that "increased lag" phenomenon happening at the start of the downswing would be much more unlikely if Hogan was actively propelling the club downwards by means of a right arm throw action.
WRONG
Finally, Hogan was a swinger, and HK stated that a swinger's power accumulator release sequence must be 4,2,3. HK never stated that the right arm should be actively throwing/thrusting in a swinger's action, and certainly not before the release of power accumulator #4.
Jeff.
QUITE a few knowledgeable TGM would disagree that Hogan was a 3 barrel swinger post accident
I am aware that you a serious student of Hogan's swing.
I therefore find it very surprising to read what you wrote- : "Sorry to say, but when looking at the photos I find it simply not natural that the sharp hip turn caused Hogan's elbow to move that far down."
Look at Hogan's swing video lesson, which you must have looked at many, many times. Are you really not convinced that Hogan's entire power package assembly was brought down to waist level as a result of his rapid lower body action. He demonstrates this "lower body move" repeatedly in this video lesson, and it is so easy to see his entire power package assembly moving as a single unit down to hip level, concurrently with his lower body action. In his "Five lessons" book he makes the same point of how the arms/hands get a "free ride" down to waist level. He is very definite about the upper limbs (arms/hands) being passive in the early downswing.
You also wrote-:"Do an experiment yourself - go to the top with a cupped left wrist and just turn your hips as quick as possible without trying to go low with the clubhead to the ground in urge to hit the ball - just hold the club and turn your hips - you'll observe that your cupped left wrist remains cupped despite the turn."
Of course my left wrist will remain cupped if I deliberately maintain a cupped left wrist. However, my left wrist flattens immmediately if I relax my left wrist and allow the left wrist to passively respond to forces that have a left wrist flattening effect. The key "feeling" is the "feeling" of leaving the club behind while the downswing is initiated. Hogan had ultra-flexible wrists and you can actually see his degree of left wrist lag increasing at the start of the downswing. I believe that the cause of that phenomenon is due to the combination of i) a sudden pull-down of the left arm (secondary to the lower body pivot action that initiates Hogan's downswing) and ii) very relaxed wrists. The likelihood of that "increased lag" phenomenon happening at the start of the downswing would be much more unlikely if Hogan was actively propelling the club downwards by means of a right arm throw action.
Finally, Hogan was a swinger, and HK stated that a swinger's power accumulator release sequence must be 4,2,3. HK never stated that the right arm should be actively throwing/thrusting in a swinger's action, and certainly not before the release of power accumulator #4.
Jeff.
Jeff, you presented some valid arguments, no doubt. However, do you really think that Hogan's swing was being powered by lower body action only ? I am more than sure that his right arm/forearm was intentionally involved in his motion. In the same book you quote he wrote "hit the ball with your right hand as strong as possible". Tomasello's theory is very interesting, as I said, because it unifies the right forearm throw with the pivot very soundly.
The more I look into Hogan's swing motion the more I believe in his "three right hands" comment; I think he was "above" those swingers/hitters criteria and sincerely am of the opinion that his downswing was a mixture of a dominant left side of the body (pulling) turboed by right arm/forearm/elbow/hand action.
Now, Tomasello theory that Pistol brought into life in this thread is simply a possible great explanation that I take into accout since there is no many concept how to combine left and right side action during the swing. Many can say that it is not even possible, but it is not true. You can easily combine and synchronize a pulling motion of the main body and correlated pushing motion of a distal part of the same body and it is a very natural thing. Discus throwers or rotational-style ball throwers in lightathletics are a great example of this kind of correlation.
You wrote-: "I am more than sure that his right arm/forearm was intentionally involved in his motion."
How can you be sure? What are you actually seeing in his swing, and at what point of the downswing are you seeing "it" so that you can definitively conclude that Hogan is actively using his right arm/forearm?
You wrote-: "The more I look into Hogan's swing motion the more I believe in his "three right hands" comment; I think he was "above" those swingers/hitters criteria and sincerely am of the opinion that his downswing was a mixture of a dominant left side of the body (pulling) turboed by right arm/forearm/elbow/hand action."
I do not doubt your sincerity as a serious student of Hogan's swing. I just would like to know precisely what you mean when you state that you can see Hogan "using his right arm/forearm/elbow/hand to turbo his downswing." At what point in his downswing do you see this happening, and how can you incontrovertibly conclude that it is an active versus passive phenomenon. When I look at Hogan's swing (as in his swing video lesson) I see an incredibly fast downswing pivot action that throws the left arm off the chest wall with immense force/speed (release of power accumulator #4) in the mid-downswing. I then see his other power accumulators (#2 and #1) release ultra-fast in the late downswing. According to HK, the release of power accumulator #1 is passive in a swinger's action because the clubshaft is traveling so fast after the release of power accumulator #2 that the straightening right elbow simply allows the right forearm to keep up with the released clubshaft. HK seemingly implied that any "push" action by an active release of power accumulator #1 in the late downswing would not be advantageous because the clubshaft is already travelling at optimum speed due to a super-efficient sequential release of power accumulators #4 and then #2. How would an active push action release of power accumulator #1 be advantageous in a swinger who has an optimised swing? Yoda has stated that he can understand the "three right hand" concept as being an optimal isometric contraction of the right forearm muscles and right triceps muscle so that the right forearm can provide optimal support behind the clubshaft in the late downswing and at impact, and in that sense I can understand the "three right hands" concept (as a non-push, "keep-up", support action). However, you are seemingly implying that the right arm/forearm/hand can provide extra push power. The onus is on you to i) demonstrate how that is theoretically possible in a super-efficient swinger's swing (like Hogan's swing which I think can be accurately described as a triple barrel 4:2:3 swing) and ii) how you know with 100% certainty that Hogan is performing that active right hand action.
You wrote-: "I am more than sure that his right arm/forearm was intentionally involved in his motion."
How can you be sure? What are you actually seeing in his swing, and at what point of the downswing are you seeing "it" so that you can definitively conclude that Hogan is actively using his right arm/forearm?
You wrote-: "The more I look into Hogan's swing motion the more I believe in his "three right hands" comment; I think he was "above" those swingers/hitters criteria and sincerely am of the opinion that his downswing was a mixture of a dominant left side of the body (pulling) turboed by right arm/forearm/elbow/hand action."
I do not doubt your sincerity as a serious student of Hogan's swing. I just would like to know precisely what you mean when you state that you can see Hogan "using his right arm/forearm/elbow/hand to turbo his downswing." At what point in his downswing do you see this happening, and how can you incontrovertibly conclude that it is an active versus passive phenomenon. When I look at Hogan's swing (as in his swing video lesson) I see an incredibly fast downswing pivot action that throws the left arm off the chest wall with immense force/speed (release of power accumulator #4) in the mid-downswing. I then see his other power accumulators (#2 and #1) release ultra-fast in the late downswing. According to HK, the release of power accumulator #1 is passive in a swinger's action because the clubshaft is traveling so fast after the release of power accumulator #2 that the straightening right elbow simply allows the right forearm to keep up with the released clubshaft. HK seemingly implied that any "push" action by an active release of power accumulator #1 in the late downswing would not be advantageous because the clubshaft is already travelling at optimum speed due to a super-efficient sequential release of power accumulators #4 and then #2. How would an active push action release of power accumulator #1 be advantageous in a swinger who has an optimised swing? Yoda has stated that he can understand the "three right hand" concept as being an optimal isometric contraction of the right forearm muscles and right triceps muscle so that the right forearm can provide optimal support behind the clubshaft in the late downswing and at impact, and in that sense I can understand the "three right hands" concept (as a non-push, "keep-up", support action). However, you are seemingly implying that the right arm/forearm/hand can provide extra push power. The onus is on you to i) demonstrate how that is theoretically possible in a super-efficient swinger's swing (like Hogan's swing which I think can be accurately described as a triple barrel 4:2:3 swing) and ii) how you know with 100% certainty that Hogan is performing that active right hand action.
Jeff.
Jeff, when i said "I am more than sure" I tried to say that it is my own belief - with due proportions of course, as was Mr.Kelley's belief that one must be either swinger or hitter and that Hogan was a pure swinger; please, do not go into semantics I have utmost respect to Homer Kelley's work, but he did not eat all brains and was not all-knowing person, since he was only a human afterall...
Let me ask one question - have you ever tried to throw a discus ? If not, try it and it shows you more than I can say here in my broken English. Also, observe what happens when a tennis player uses one-handed backhand and compare to a double-handed one.
Pay attention to two things when looking at swing of Hogan:
1) during the second phase of downswing, he squares the clubface while still maintaining huge lag and his right hand goes into sort of palm-down position; I call it the conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag;
how do you explain this phenomenon without an active right arm ? not possible to do it, IMHO, by only pulling with the lead arm since it would bring inevitably his right arm away from his body at impact.
2) what I already said - compare his right elbow move in relation to his pivot - you will observe that his right elbow moves independently (i.e. more than his pivot would suggest); it's easily visible on each post-secret DTL Hogan's swing motion.
Dariusz
First off it is nice to see you have a great grasp on reality versus illusion and some interesting ideas on the right elbow position.
This is my opinion on the deal regarding Jim Hardy and how i see the right elbow position.
Hogan 1946 to accident had the right elbow well in front of his hip and maintained the left wrist cup and predominantly faded the ball with the odd hook thrown in according to Dr Cary Middlecoff .
Post accident and later footage 1960's in particular Hogan clearly changed his pivot and his hands move longitudinally out and down while his lateral shift is just finishing and in my opinion his knee action is part of the deal.
Now the right elbow moves into a deep pitch position early in the transition as a result of the knee action and the right hand /wrist/forearm throw that TT describes and this is why the right elbow "freezes" on the hip and some footage marginally behind while the pivot continues and Hogan gets that long right arm after impact.
Release and hold i describe this motion as the right hand releases down and out while the left hand holds.
This is my opinion why Hardy was fooled by the right elbow as it is still in a pitch and not punch position as it will " freeze" when this motion of the right hand/forearm karate chop is done correctly.
In Summary
Hogan 1946 to accident
very evident cup on left wrist with standard pivot and left arm dominant and not the master of his swing
Hogan later years
less evident cup on left wrist, different pivot/knee action and right arm dominant and master of his swing
You wrote-: "during the second phase of downswing, he squares the clubface while still maintaining huge lag and his right hand goes into sort of palm-down position; I call it the conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag How do you explain this phenomenon without an active right arm ? not possible to do it, IMHO, by only pulling with the lead arm since it would bring inevitably his right arm away from his body at impact."
I am willing to take time to understand your viewpoint because I know that you are a serious student of Hogan's swing. However, I can only understand your viewpoint if you express it in sufficient detail that I can grasp what you are implying.
What do you mean by "squaring the clubface in the late downswing"?
What do you mean by the "right palm-down" position?
What do you mean by "conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag"?
What do you mean when you state that the "right elbow moves independently more than the pivot suggests"? When does this happen? Are you implying that the right elbow moves independently, and out of synchrony, with its right arm flying wedge relationships?
It is interesting that you made this statement -:"not possible to do it by only pulling with the left arm"?
I wonder whether we have the same conception of HK"s description of a swinger's swing. It is my understanding that HK stated that a swinger uses a triple barrel swing - 4:2:3 - and that the release of power accumulator #1 is not active. From my perspective, that only means that power accumulator #1 doesn't apply additional "push" power over-and-beyond that required to supply continuous extensor action via PP#1 and more than is necessary for the right elbow to straighten at a rate that is synchronous with the left arm pulling away as a result of release of power accumulator #4.
Yoda can correct me if I am wrong. However, this is my perception of a swinger's downswing action - like Hogan's downswing action.
A swinger (who is not an arm swinger, but a body swinger) initiates the downswing with a downswing pivot action starting with the lower body and then involving the upper body. During the early/mid downswing, the torso moves as fast as the arms, so that the entire power package remains intact until the hands reach waist level. Then, the downswing pivot action subsides and that causes the left arm to be catapulted off the left shoulder area thus widening the angle between the left arm and upper chest wall between the shoulder sockets. From this time-point onwards the arms are moving faster than the torso, and this represents the "effect" of the release of power accumulator #4. When the left arm is moving faster than the torso, it is indeed pulling the grip end of the club in a longitudinal direction. However, that doesn't mean that the right arm/forearm is passive. During the mid downswing, when the distance between the left hand and the right shoulder is increasing as a result of the release of power accumulator #4, the power package structure remains intact and the right elbow is still bent at a right angle. I think that it is only possible to maintain these power package relationships if the right arm/forearm muscles are isometrically active. In other words, I believe that the right arm/forearm is very active in an isometric sense during the downswing, and it is only correct to state that the right arm/forearm is passive from an isotonic perspective (which means that the right triceps doesn't shorten and actively straighten the right elbow, and the right forearm flexor muscles do not shorten and palmar flex the right wrist). However, the right arm/forearm muscles must be very active from an isometric perspective for a golfer to maintain the right arm flying wedge relationships and to also maintain constant extensor action throughout the downwswing. I also believe that the isometric contraction of the right arm/forearm muscles allow a golfer to "direct" the right forearm to remain "on plane" and avoid a situation where the left arm flies away from the body during the mid-late downswing (as you implied). It is the right arm/forearm that keeps the clubshaft "on plane" during the downswing and that would not be possible if the right arm/forearm muscles are not actively contracting. However, that doesn't mean that the right arm/forearm muscles are supplying "push" power in the sense of actively releasing power accumulator #1. HK suggested in his TGM book that one shouldn't "pull" and "push" at the same time, which is why he stated that a standard swinger's action (non-right arm swinger's action) can only be a 3-barrel action (4:2;3) and not a 4-barrel action (4:1:2:3).
Thankfully Hogan changed from a 3 barrel to a 4 barrel or else nobody would even discuss him.
APPLICATION is the order of the day not reciting a textbook with no true understanding of motions.
Dariusz i saw your latest swings and that motion is a vast improvement so keep up the application and good things will happen
Here is another comment to supplement my previous post.
This graph shows the kinetic sequence in an excellent swinger's swing.
The graph is from Philip Cheetham of TPI.
Note how the angular speed of rotation of the hips/shoulders/arms is the same in the early downswing. Then note that the pelvis slows down slightly before the shoulders, and that the shoulders slow down a little later, just before the arms reach peak velocity. Note that the arms reach peak velocity when the hands are at waist level - in the mid-dowswing. Note that the arms are moving at a slower speed in the late downswing, but that the clubhead is rapidly accelerating in the late downswing to reach maximum velocity at impact. The reason why the club is moving so fast in the late downswing is due to the release phenomenon (release of power accumulator #2). Considering how fast the club is moving in the late downswing due to the sequential release of power accumulators #4 and then #2, how could an active release of power accumulator #1 at this same time-point in the late downswing increase clubhead speed? Remember that the the right elbow is straightening in the late downswing at the same time as the clubhead is traveling at an ultra-fast speed. How can any active isotonic contraction of the right triceps muscle at this same time-point in the swing get the club to move faster than is demonstrated in this diagram.
Maybe that is why Hogan "wished he had three right hands". He wished that he could get the club to move faster in the late downswing, but practical common-sense probably made him realize that his swing was already optimized for maximum clubhead speed generation., and that any attempt to add extra swing power in the late downswing was not practically possible for a swinger who had a perfected triple barrel 4:2;3 swing.
You wrote-: "during the second phase of downswing, he squares the clubface while still maintaining huge lag and his right hand goes into sort of palm-down position; I call it the conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag How do you explain this phenomenon without an active right arm ? not possible to do it, IMHO, by only pulling with the lead arm since it would bring inevitably his right arm away from his body at impact."
I am willing to take time to understand your viewpoint because I know that you are a serious student of Hogan's swing. However, I can only understand your viewpoint if you express it in sufficient detail that I can grasp what you are implying.
What do you mean by "squaring the clubface in the late downswing"?
I mean that the clubface is not square to the arc early just after transition (as e.g. per Hardy's "twist&throw" concept, the same that Mike LaBauve was teaching Jeff Quinney - famous "watch down move") and is not kept open to the arc almost until impact (as happens in case of Henry's Cotton crossover release term). What I see, Hogan squared his clubface just before entering the impact zone when his right hand seem to turn into a palm down position. It can be seen when his shaft is, more or less, in parallel to the ground position.
What do you mean by the "right palm-down" position?
Hogan had a weak right hand grip after the accident. In order to square the clubface with such a grip type you need to bring the right hand more on top of the grip - just as it is at address (we may presume that Hogan's clubface at address was square )
What do you mean by "conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag"?
Just as it is written. A person with a dominant left hand will try to maintain lag by maintaining left wrist cock angle until the angular momentum overcomes it. A person with a dominant right hand will concentrate on maintaining right wrist hinge angle, that is sort of an equivalent of left wrist cock angle - when left wrist cocks, right wrist hinges in a good grip.
The hip turn that starts the downswing (i.e. left side of the body action - remember Hogan's image of elastic tape glued to his left hip ?) is a pulling motion that can create by itself the left wrist cock. Supposing that Hogan used his right arm/elbow/forearm/hand to support the hit, he had to convert the left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag.
Sorry if my explanation is a bit clumsy, but English is not my native language...but I tried my best.
What do you mean when you state that the "right elbow moves independently more than the pivot suggests"? When does this happen? Are you implying that the right elbow moves independently, and out of synchrony, with its right arm flying wedge relationships?
It is interesting that you made this statement -:"not possible to do it by only pulling with the left arm"?
I wonder whether we have the same conception of HK"s description of a swinger's swing. It is my understanding that HK stated that a swinger uses a triple barrel swing - 4:2:3 - and that the release of power accumulator #1 is not active. From my perspective, that only means that power accumulator #1 doesn't apply additional "push" power over-and-beyond that required to supply continuous extensor action via PP#1 and more than is necessary for the right elbow to straighten at a rate that is synchronous with the left arm pulling away as a result of release of power accumulator #4.
Yoda can correct me if I am wrong. However, this is my perception of a swinger's downswing action - like Hogan's downswing action.
A swinger (who is not an arm swinger, but a body swinger) initiates the downswing with a downswing pivot action starting with the lower body and then involving the upper body. During the early/mid downswing, the torso moves as fast as the arms, so that the entire power package remains intact until the hands reach waist level. Then, the downswing pivot action subsides and that causes the left arm to be catapulted off the left shoulder area thus widening the angle between the left arm and upper chest wall between the shoulder sockets. From this time-point onwards the arms are moving faster than the torso, and this represents the "effect" of the release of power accumulator #4. When the left arm is moving faster than the torso, it is indeed pulling the grip end of the club in a longitudinal direction. However, that doesn't mean that the right arm/forearm is passive. During the mid downswing, when the distance between the left hand and the right shoulder is increasing as a result of the release of power accumulator #4, the power package structure remains intact and the right elbow is still bent at a right angle. I think that it is only possible to maintain these power package relationships if the right arm/forearm muscles are isometrically active. In other words, I believe that the right arm/forearm is very active in an isometric sense during the downswing, and it is only correct to state that the right arm/forearm is passive from an isotonic perspective (which means that the right triceps doesn't shorten and actively straighten the right elbow, and the right forearm flexor muscles do not shorten and palmar flex the right wrist). However, the right arm/forearm muscles must be very active from an isometric perspective for a golfer to maintain the right arm flying wedge relationships and to also maintain constant extensor action throughout the downwswing. I also believe that the isometric contraction of the right arm/forearm muscles allow a golfer to "direct" the right forearm to remain "on plane" and avoid a situation where the left arm flies away from the body during the mid-late downswing (as you implied). It is the right arm/forearm that keeps the clubshaft "on plane" during the downswing and that would not be possible if the right arm/forearm muscles are not actively contracting. However, that doesn't mean that the right arm/forearm muscles are supplying "push" power in the sense of actively releasing power accumulator #1. HK suggested in his TGM book that one shouldn't "pull" and "push" at the same time, which is why he stated that a standard swinger's action (non-right arm swinger's action) can only be a 3-barrel action (4:2;3) and not a 4-barrel action (4:1:2:3).
OK, of course Mr.Kelley was right. You can't pull and push in the same time, but with the same part of the body. As I said, it's very natural to pull the main body left when pushing the distal part of the body as a support...just as it happens in lightathletic rotational throwers motions. The only one joining point between arms and the body are shoulder joints (that cannot move in all direction, BTW). It implies that an independent movement of arms (or better said forearms) and body is not only possible but even desirable in certain situations, especially if the role of them as distal parts of the body is limited e.g. by having upper parts of arms connected eliminating the undesirable impact of elbow joints.
Jeff.
Jeff, my answers, for what they are worth, in bold blue above.
__________________
Dariusz
Last edited by Dariusz J. : 06-15-2008 at 02:41 PM.
I have utmost respect to Homer Kelley's work, but he did not eat all brains and was not all-knowing person, since he was only a human afterall...
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