Great thread; lots to learn here. Thanks to all who are participating.
Jeff, I understand and agree with your premise regarding the Swinger's passive Right Arm participation. But for me, it does not explain Hogan's desire for "three right hands". In fact, the whole notion of 'passive right arm' conflicts with it.
Here's my view:
As do all good players, Hogan sensed tremendous Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure from Release to the end of the Follow-Through ('Through the Ball' per 7-24). He felt this Lag Pressure (Acceleration Rate / 2-M-2 #1) in his #3 Pressure Point (first joint of the Right Hand forefinger) and wanted more.Alas, since Clubhead Inertia can withstand all the Lag Pressure anyone can generate (7-19), there was no 'more' to get. Thus, with only one right hand, Hogan felt deficient.
Further, though Clubhead Lag Pressure only indirectly drives (7-11) the Club through Impact, it is nonetheless a dominant Feel. In fact, creating and maintaining this Lag Pressure (1-L #7) is no less than The Secret of Golf (6-C-2-0 / - A). And this indirect drive at Pressure Point #3 -- Right Hand -- is transmitted via the passive Power Accumulator #1 -- Right Elbow (6-C-2-C / 10-11-0-3).
All of which explains the Swinger's Feel ("describable sensation" per 1-J and 3-B) of the "stiff-wristed Right Forearm Slap" (Major Basic Stroke / 10-3-B) and the mantra of The Golfing Machine:
Sustain the Lag![3-F-7-B]
Lynn, sorry for bringing this thread from the basement - but it cannot be regarded as complete without your non-TGM translation that your promised
I'm glad you did bring it back up Dariusz J. There's a lot of interesting argument.
Jeff started by saying that Hogan's lower body created the flattening of the left wrist at the start of the downswing. I think John Schlee said that this was a key move for Hogan. Only it was not produced by the lower body but rather by consciously sensing the right thumb and forefinger both fall down, and in, at the start of the downswing. If the arms don't drop I believe this will both flatten the left wrist and lessen the amount of wrist cock he would be playing with through the ball. It gives the appearance of being laid off but not in a bad way I don't think. Would this increase his lag pressure? He may have been using both inertia and gravity.
It may also explain part of the downcocking appearance he gives through the ball. This move is clearly evident in that famous sequence from Andrisani's book.
I find it very interesting that in Modern Fundamentals he says that the right thumb and forefinger are not to be used but then qualifies this warning by saying that they may be used for finesse shots for the better player. I always thought this was referring to the short game and wedge shots but perhaps not.
You wrote-: "during the second phase of downswing, he squares the clubface while still maintaining huge lag and his right hand goes into sort of palm-down position; I call it the conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag How do you explain this phenomenon without an active right arm ? not possible to do it, IMHO, by only pulling with the lead arm since it would bring inevitably his right arm away from his body at impact."
I am willing to take time to understand your viewpoint because I know that you are a serious student of Hogan's swing. However, I can only understand your viewpoint if you express it in sufficient detail that I can grasp what you are implying.
What do you mean by "squaring the clubface in the late downswing"?
I mean that the clubface is not square to the arc early just after transition (as e.g. per Hardy's "twist&throw" concept, the same that Mike LaBauve was teaching Jeff Quinney - famous "watch down move") and is not kept open to the arc almost until impact (as happens in case of Henry's Cotton crossover release term). What I see, Hogan squared his clubface just before entering the impact zone when his right hand seem to turn into a palm down position. It can be seen when his shaft is, more or less, in parallel to the ground position.
What do you mean by the "right palm-down" position?
Hogan had a weak right hand grip after the accident. In order to square the clubface with such a grip type you need to bring the right hand more on top of the grip - just as it is at address (we may presume that Hogan's clubface at address was square )
What do you mean by "conversion of a left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag"?
Just as it is written. A person with a dominant left hand will try to maintain lag by maintaining left wrist cock angle until the angular momentum overcomes it. A person with a dominant right hand will concentrate on maintaining right wrist hinge angle, that is sort of an equivalent of left wrist cock angle - when left wrist cocks, right wrist hinges in a good grip.
The hip turn that starts the downswing (i.e. left side of the body action - remember Hogan's image of elastic tape glued to his left hip ?) is a pulling motion that can create by itself the left wrist cock. Supposing that Hogan used his right arm/elbow/forearm/hand to support the hit, he had to convert the left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag.
Sorry if my explanation is a bit clumsy, but English is not my native language...but I tried my best.
What do you mean when you state that the "right elbow moves independently more than the pivot suggests"? When does this happen? Are you implying that the right elbow moves independently, and out of synchrony, with its right arm flying wedge relationships?
It is interesting that you made this statement -:"not possible to do it by only pulling with the left arm"?
I wonder whether we have the same conception of HK"s description of a swinger's swing. It is my understanding that HK stated that a swinger uses a triple barrel swing - 4:2:3 - and that the release of power accumulator #1 is not active. From my perspective, that only means that power accumulator #1 doesn't apply additional "push" power over-and-beyond that required to supply continuous extensor action via PP#1 and more than is necessary for the right elbow to straighten at a rate that is synchronous with the left arm pulling away as a result of release of power accumulator #4.
Yoda can correct me if I am wrong. However, this is my perception of a swinger's downswing action - like Hogan's downswing action.
A swinger (who is not an arm swinger, but a body swinger) initiates the downswing with a downswing pivot action starting with the lower body and then involving the upper body. During the early/mid downswing, the torso moves as fast as the arms, so that the entire power package remains intact until the hands reach waist level. Then, the downswing pivot action subsides and that causes the left arm to be catapulted off the left shoulder area thus widening the angle between the left arm and upper chest wall between the shoulder sockets. From this time-point onwards the arms are moving faster than the torso, and this represents the "effect" of the release of power accumulator #4. When the left arm is moving faster than the torso, it is indeed pulling the grip end of the club in a longitudinal direction. However, that doesn't mean that the right arm/forearm is passive. During the mid downswing, when the distance between the left hand and the right shoulder is increasing as a result of the release of power accumulator #4, the power package structure remains intact and the right elbow is still bent at a right angle. I think that it is only possible to maintain these power package relationships if the right arm/forearm muscles are isometrically active. In other words, I believe that the right arm/forearm is very active in an isometric sense during the downswing, and it is only correct to state that the right arm/forearm is passive from an isotonic perspective (which means that the right triceps doesn't shorten and actively straighten the right elbow, and the right forearm flexor muscles do not shorten and palmar flex the right wrist). However, the right arm/forearm muscles must be very active from an isometric perspective for a golfer to maintain the right arm flying wedge relationships and to also maintain constant extensor action throughout the downwswing. I also believe that the isometric contraction of the right arm/forearm muscles allow a golfer to "direct" the right forearm to remain "on plane" and avoid a situation where the left arm flies away from the body during the mid-late downswing (as you implied). It is the right arm/forearm that keeps the clubshaft "on plane" during the downswing and that would not be possible if the right arm/forearm muscles are not actively contracting. However, that doesn't mean that the right arm/forearm muscles are supplying "push" power in the sense of actively releasing power accumulator #1. HK suggested in his TGM book that one shouldn't "pull" and "push" at the same time, which is why he stated that a standard swinger's action (non-right arm swinger's action) can only be a 3-barrel action (4:2;3) and not a 4-barrel action (4:1:2:3).
OK, of course Mr.Kelley was right. You can't pull and push in the same time, but with the same part of the body. As I said, it's very natural to pull the main body left when pushing the distal part of the body as a support...just as it happens in lightathletic rotational throwers motions. The only one joining point between arms and the body are shoulder joints (that cannot move in all direction, BTW). It implies that an independent movement of arms (or better said forearms) and body is not only possible but even desirable in certain situations, especially if the role of them as distal parts of the body is limited e.g. by having upper parts of arms connected eliminating the undesirable impact of elbow joints.
Jeff.
Jeff, my answers, for what they are worth, in bold blue above.
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Dariusz
Last edited by Dariusz J. : 06-15-2008 at 02:41 PM.
Dariusz
First off it is nice to see you have a great grasp on reality versus illusion and some interesting ideas on the right elbow position.
This is my opinion on the deal regarding Jim Hardy and how i see the right elbow position.
Hogan 1946 to accident had the right elbow well in front of his hip and maintained the left wrist cup and predominantly faded the ball with the odd hook thrown in according to Dr Cary Middlecoff .
Post accident and later footage 1960's in particular Hogan clearly changed his pivot and his hands move longitudinally out and down while his lateral shift is just finishing and in my opinion his knee action is part of the deal.
Now the right elbow moves into a deep pitch position early in the transition as a result of the knee action and the right hand /wrist/forearm throw that TT describes and this is why the right elbow "freezes" on the hip and some footage marginally behind while the pivot continues and Hogan gets that long right arm after impact.
Release and hold i describe this motion as the right hand releases down and out while the left hand holds.
This is my opinion why Hardy was fooled by the right elbow as it is still in a pitch and not punch position as it will " freeze" when this motion of the right hand/forearm karate chop is done correctly.
In Summary Hogan 1946 to accident
very evident cup on left wrist with standard pivot and left arm dominant and not the master of his swing
Hogan later years
less evident cup on left wrist, different pivot/knee action and right arm dominant and master of his swing
IMHO, not a word more, not a word less - one of the top three posts about Mr.Hogan's action I've ever read. Noone of us can say if your words are exactly correct (only The Man could...), however, it is really difficult for me to find a weak point in it so far.
Tom Tomassello's concept + VJ Trolio's findings = possible greatest description of Hogan's swing so far...
Hybrid Mode
