Hula like pivot

[KevCarter]

KOC

If the pelvis is square to the ball-target line at address, and then 45 degrees angled to the ball-target line at the end of the backswing, then it has rotated 45 degrees. How it got to that 45 degree rotated position could vary from a biomechanical mechanism perspective. For example, in my diagram I show how the right femoral head has moved backwards and leftwards. That could occur via different biomechanical mechanisms. One could use pelvic girdle muscles to pull the right pelvis back and secondarily the right femoral head back (because of its snug-relationship to the hip socket joint). Alternatively, one could shift the torso right-laterally against the resistance of a "fixed" right knee => that causes the deflected forces to slant the right thigh to the left => that drives the right femoral head left-backwards => then the pelvis moves secondarily to the movement of the right femoral head.

I only tried the drill once to understand the biomechanics. I think that BM was using that drill to teach golfers not to sway the pelvis laterally, but to rotate the pelvis.

Brady Riggs is teaching the same basic principle is this swing video lesson.

Jeff.

Jeff,

I am seeing it a little differently. I am seeing Mr. Manzella creating some tilt by moving his head and shoulders back over the right foot. I am seeing Mr. Riggs create some tilt by moving his hips forward while keeping his head more stationary. Mr. Riggs motion reminds me a lot of VJ Trolio's Hogan "secret" move. I really like that motion.

What am I missing?

Kevin

[Jeff]

Kevin - we see reality differently.

I think that BM and BR are performing the same pelvic rotational movement from a biomechanical perspective, except that BM is deliberately allowing his head and upper torso to rotate as far as possible to the right (head is outside his inner right foot) to exaggerate the drill effect and to get that clubshaft perpendicular to the ball-target line. By contrast, BR is probably attempting to keep his head more stationary and within the boundaries of his stance.

Jeff.

[KevCarter]

Kevin - we see reality differently.

I think that BM and BR are performing the same pelvic rotational movement from a biomechanical perspective, except that BM is deliberately allowing his head and upper torso to rotate as far as possible to the right (head is outside his inner right foot) to exaggerate the drill effect and to get that clubshaft perpendicular to the ball-target line. By contrast, BR is probably attempting to keep his head more stationary and within the boundaries of his stance.

Jeff.

Jeff, I don't think we see reality differently, I just don't have an understanding of bio-mechanics as you do. I do appreciate all the time you put in studying the swing and enjoy you sharing what you learn.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Jeff]

Yoda - you wrote-: "We encourage debate on the fine points, Jeff, and we welcome your contributions. We also can handle being patronized (as long as we feel we are being educated). But, don't continue to insult us with obvious contradicitons.

That tactic does nothing to further the objectives of this fraternity and destroys your own credibility within it."

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You seem to be implying that I am acting in "bad faith" by tactically trying to get away with some obvious contradiction. That's terribly unfair! I may be arrogant and stupid and uninformed and totally wrong, but I am not trying to intentionally mislead anybody.

I got that BM drill from this BM article.

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/g...backswing.html

Brian was concerned that golfers tended to reverse pivot if they rigidly kept their heads too still. He suggested that a golfer should learn to pivot the pelvis correctly by having a free rotation of the pelvis that would allow the spine to acquire a rightwards spinal tilt. Brain was not concerned if the head moves slightly to the right. He wasn't promoting a deliberate movement of the head. He was simply stating that it is more important to keep the base of the neck still.

His exaggerated drill may produce an excessive upper torso tilt to the right and excessive head shift to the right, but he was not encouraging upper torso swaying (which is a lateral torso movement without a major rotary component). In fact, I think that he was essentially dealing with the same problem-issue that Brady Riggs was talking about - a reverse pivot due to swaying the pelvis right-laterally instead of rotating the pelvis. Both instructors were encouraging a movement of the right femoral head left-backwards, thereby inducing a pelvic rotation, and that pelvic rotational movement would naturally cause the spine to become more oriented towards the right (as I previously described).

I think that both golf instructors are encouraging the correct method of rotating the pelvis in the backswing, which inevitably causes the spine and upper torso to acquire a rightwards-tilt. However, my personal belief is that this reverse-K postural movement should not be exaggerated to such a degree that the head moves more than 1-3" right off its central position. My personal bias is that a small amount of rightwards head movement is acceptable during the backswing, but that it is very unacceptable to allow the left side of the head/face to move closer to the target at any time point during the backswing or downswing (compared to its address position).

I may be wrong in my opinions, but I am definitely not trying to mislead anyone or reconcile obvious contradictions.

Jeff.

[KOC]

Jeff,

Pay attention to photo sequence 1, 2 and 3…compare 1 and 2, compare 2 and 3 then 1 and 3

1. Standard Address…
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9807/36972075ho3.jpg

2. Half way back and look like what Jeff’s opinion…head, spine toward to the right…
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7383/56936993wp5.jpg

3. Top of the swing….and strange thing happened…head back to where at address
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7079/61007507sn8.jpg

Last two…just great, nothinig to say!
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/662/70076097tl9.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9824/57284338wa6.jpg

p.s. Hope that the teacher doesn’t mind my attempt to verify a few points as other quoted his drill.

[Jeff]

Kev

My theory is that BM gets his head too far to the right during the mid-backswing because he starts off with his head too far over to the right at address. I suspect that he keeps his pelvis central and then tilts his upper spine to the right at address. That moves his head to the right of center of his stance. Then, when he rotates his pelvis in the mid-backswing, his head moves further rightwards.

I think that he would be better off if he followed Yoda's advice for getting rightwards spinal tilt at address - keep the head centralised between the feet and then shift the pelvis sightly to the left.

Jeff.

[12 piece bucket]

Yoda - you wrote-: "We encourage debate on the fine points, Jeff, and we welcome your contributions. We also can handle being patronized (as long as we feel we are being educated). But, don't continue to insult us with obvious contradicitons.

That tactic does nothing to further the objectives of this fraternity and destroys your own credibility within it."

-----------------------------------

You seem to be implying that I am acting in "bad faith" by tactically trying to get away with some obvious contradiction. That's terribly unfair! I may be arrogant and stupid and uninformed and totally wrong, but I am not trying to intentionally mislead anybody.

I got that BM drill from this BM article.

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/g...backswing.html

Brian was concerned that golfers tended to reverse pivot if they rigidly kept their heads too still. He suggested that a golfer should learn to pivot the pelvis correctly by having a free rotation of the pelvis that would allow the spine to acquire a rightwards spinal tilt. Brain was not concerned if the head moves slightly to the right. He wasn't promoting a deliberate movement of the head. He was simply stating that it is more important to keep the base of the neck still.

His exaggerated drill may produce an excessive upper torso tilt to the right and excessive head shift to the right, but he was not encouraging upper torso swaying (which is a lateral torso movement without a major rotary component). In fact, I think that he was essentially dealing with the same problem-issue that Brady Riggs was talking about - a reverse pivot due to swaying the pelvis right-laterally instead of rotating the pelvis. Both instructors were encouraging a movement of the right femoral head left-backwards, thereby inducing a pelvic rotation, and that pelvic rotational movement would naturally cause the spine to become more oriented towards the right (as I previously described).

I think that both golf instructors are encouraging the correct method of rotating the pelvis in the backswing, which inevitably causes the spine and upper torso to acquire a rightwards-tilt. However, my personal belief is that this reverse-K postural movement should not be exaggerated to such a degree that the head moves more than 1-3" right off its central position. My personal bias is that a small amount of rightwards head movement is acceptable during the backswing, but that it is very unacceptable to allow the left side of the head/face to move closer to the target at any time point during the backswing or downswing (compared to its address position).

I may be wrong in my opinions, but I am definitely not trying to mislead anyone or reconcile obvious contradictions.

Jeff.

Not sure how that drill encourages the base of the neck to be still but whatever . . . .

So now that we know your theory on proper backstroke pivoting . . . . What should the head do on the way through the stroke? Move forward the amount it moved back or move forward that much more or just stay back there?

That article doesn't mention anything on the spine's ability to side bend or extend in either direction . . . . If you don't extend your spine on the backstroke you'll end up looking like the drill does.

[Yoda]

From your post #26 above:

[Hogan's] head is behind the center of his stance at address. He also moves his head ahead of that center line during the downswing.

Now this in post #69:

. . . it is very unacceptable to allow the left side of the head/face to move closer to the target at any time point during the backswing or downswing (compared to its address position).

I may be wrong in my opinions, but I am definitely not trying to mislead anyone or reconcile obvious contradictions.

Based on your analysis of Ben Hogan's swing and its conflict with your statement, you presumably find Hogan's move "unacceptabe". I suggest that puts you in a minority.

[Jeff]

Yoda - very good point about Hogan. That demonstrates my foolishness and yet again demonstrates to me that I should never make strict rules that are not 100% biomechanically solid. Hogan slides his pelvis quite a lot left-laterally in my photo series and that moves his torso/head slightly leftwards. That's obviously not a problem for the golfer who is without doubt one of the greatest ball strikers in the history of golf.

It is interesting that VJ Trolio shows in his book that Hogan didn't have that much slide later in his career. In fact, he states that Hogan didn't have any slide during the downswing because he moved his pelvis left-laterally in the backswing. I am still conflicted by this issue and I wonder if there was a major change in his pelvic movements later in his life, or whether we are having a problem with camera angle distortion issues.

Jeff.

[12 piece bucket]

That demonstrates my foolishness and yet again demonstrates to me that I should never make strict rules that are not 100% biomechanically solid.
Jeff.

I still don't get all this . . . I got no beef with biomechanics . . . but to what end? Are we trying to hit it the farthest? Are we trying to hit it far and straight blending the two?

How much distance are we to believe Tiger is gaining by moving his head back and bobbing? Or is that an accuracy deal?