Good job, O.B. Left. These were the determining "Excessive Axis Tilt" factors that jumped out at me. In other words, the extreme condition evidenced in Jamie's swing is the result of his specialized procedure designed to minimize spin, not a need to stay "in balance".
Backspin is Compression Leakage. Under normal circumstances, it is a desired effect that results in Ball Control. But 'long drive' contestants are far more interested in Distance than Accuracy. Hence, they attempt to minimize Backspin, and in so doing, produce the near-equivalent of the baseball pitcher's knuckleball. A teed, intentional "flyer".
Interestingly, Deane Beaman, the former PGA TOUR Commissioner and also a former U.S. Amateur Champion and TOUR player, on several occasions beat Jack Nicklaus (and everybody else) in the exhibition long-drive contests held at various TOUR stops. What makes this a big deal is that Deane was one of the shortest hitters on TOUR! His secret? He would deliberately hit the ground just before impact, create a grass-driven flier, and let the 'no spin' knuckleball effect take care of the distance.
The long-drivers of today are accomplishing much the same thing . . .
Without the grass!
To piggyback on this, I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has read of tour players making conscious changes to their setups/swings in order to max out distance on a particular shot, or have read about them using driver specs that don't max out their distance, in an effort to maintain control.
While there are some aspects of setup and swing that lend themselves to both greater control and distance, some are mutually exclusive to each other, and you have to make a choice as to which components you'll need to comprominse (either in totality or in degrees) in order to gain more of one over the other.
You asked-: "But I like Henny am wondering why anyone would want to have a compensated swing that held his head back in fix etc. To what end? Why not manage low point better and move the ball up in the stance with the head or pivot center in its uncompensated alignment?"
That's a good question. I will express my biased opinion, which is based on human biomechanics.
I agree with Yoda that the ideal swing is to stay centered within one's stance. As Yoda pointed out in a previous post, look at the great three players - Player, Palmer, Nicklaus - and note how they pivot around an imaginary pivot axis that is centralised between the feet. I think that approach works very well for ALL golfers for iron shots and most golfers for driver swings.
However, if a very flexible golfer, who has a lot of hula hula flexibility, wants to drive the ball a very long way, then there is a mechanical advantage to having a great deal of secondary axis tilt at impact.
Here are a series of photos of Jamie Sadlowski from the latest issue of GD magazine. He recently won the 2008 Long Drive Competition with a drive of 418 yards.
Note how much secondary axis tilt he has at impact. I think that he needs that much secondary axis tilt to stay in balance - considering the force of forward momentum of his arms/clubshaft that are swinging towards the target. I previously argued that a golfer needs to have a braced skeletal structure (from the top of the stationary head -through the spine-through the pelvis-down the left leg to the left foot) at impact. I think that Sadlowski anticipates the need for that braced skeletal structure, and its shape, at impact, and he therefore sets his head behind the center of his stance at address. Then he simply needs to keep his head stationary as he swings into impact against a firm supportive (braced) left leg and a braced rightwards-tilted spine that is kept braced by a stationary head.
That's why I think that HK was very wise to allow for that need in special circumstances - by stating that one should start with one's head at the anticipated impact location. Most of the time that will mean a stationary head centralised in the stance, but under special circumstances (as above) it may be better to have one's head right-of-center.
Jeff.
p.s. The Gulbis photo was posted as a joke - and it is equivalent to recommending Furyk's steep off-plane backswing clubshaft movement as a role model for the average golfer. Although HK catalogued that backswing variation in his book, I presume that he would recommend a backswing plane in the steepness range that is some where between the elbow plane and the turned shoulder plane.
Jeff,
Can I chim in here?
I like were this whole post is going, read a bunch of it for the second time. Thought I would write something, however guys smarter than me have done so.
Great picture you posted of Jamie here. I have to say however, one of my good friends took 7th over all in the Remax with jamie. Said that kids is amazing at such a young age. However he did say he almost did not make it because one out of four of his balls curves more than anyones out there.
I will say however he will win more Remax LD deals in the future, he has a ton of talent.
I think for the average golfer they can learn alot from what he does in his swing, but must pick and choose what part. It fully a pure power stroke rather than a control stroke.
I think you nailed that one well.
I think that it is a mistake to causally equate a large amount of secondary axis tilt with hitting upwards at a teed ball when using a driver.
Here is a capture image of VJ Singh from a swing video.
VJ Singh always hits down with his driver - note the forward clubshaft lean. However, he has a large amount of secondary axis tilt.
I think that a large amount of secondary axis tilt in long hitters (like Tiger Woods and VJ Singh) better correlates with a need to keep in balance when swinging at fast arm speeds.
I think that it is a mistake to causally equate a large amount of secondary axis tilt with hitting upwards at a teed ball when using a driver.
Here is a capture image of VJ Singh from a swing video.
VJ Singh always hits down with his driver - note the forward clubshaft lean. However, he has a large amount of secondary axis tilt.
I think that a large amount of secondary axis tilt in long hitters (like Tiger Woods and VJ Singh) better correlates with a need to keep in balance when swinging at fast arm speeds.
Jeff.
Jeff,
both of them are great on power.
But, what about middle of the short grass. Thats what I was getting at.
IMHO the large secondary axis tilt is because he tees it high and hits up with the driver. It wouldn't work with a 5 iron off the ground.
I know it is anti TGM but the long drivers hit up on the ball and Trackman confirms the video below.
go to the 3:26 mark
Not necessarily anti TGM, as there is room for special procedures, for special purposes. Like a super high launch angle for the long shot guys.
But, for the record, the ball is only hit on the upswing if it is forward of low point, the left shoulder, at impact. VJ's left shoulder and others are not so and therefore they are hitting down.
OB Left - you are presuming that the low point must always be opposite the left shoulder. That may apply most of the time, but not necessarily all of the time. I don't think that it applies to Jamie's driver swing. It is possible to get the hands ahead of the left shoulder at impact with forward shaft lean - which means that the clubhead is on a descending path and not an ascending path. In Jamie's photo, the central end of the clubshaft near the hands has forward shaft lean at impact - even though the hands are ahead of the left shoulder. Note the bend in his left elbow at impact - which makes this possible.
OB Left - you are presuming that the low point must always be opposite the left shoulder. That may apply most of the time, but not necessarily all of the time. I don't think that it applies to Jamie's driver swing. It is possible to get the hands ahead of the left shoulder at impact with forward shaft lean - which means that the clubhead is on a descending path and not an ascending path. In Jamie's photo, the central end of the clubshaft near the hands has forward shaft lean at impact - even though the hands are ahead of the left shoulder. Note the bend in his left elbow at impact - which makes this possible.
Jeff.
So to itemize you:
- dont think this photo is showing the real facts, that the shaft bend isnt real. A video artifact. But the handle end bend is real and revealing some true shaft lean. This is not an artifact. Interesting please explain.
- dont think that low point is necessarily opposite the left shoulder. That it can be manipulated.
-dont think this fellow pictured here is hitting up.
These are your opinions and you are entitled to them. But I disagree.
I tend to see things differently. But unlike you I can be swayed as these are only opinions or perceptions of mine and I am open to anything that improves my understanding of the games methods. Why? Because I want to improve my game. That is why I am here. Why are you here? To what end?
I currently believe that:
-that the high speed photos are accurate in their depiction of shaft bend.
-that while it is possible to manipulate your swing so that you bottom out outside the left shoulder, low point is ALWAYS opposite your left shoulder. That is to say that a straight left arm and club, vertical to the ground and opposite its attachment to the body is as low as that sucker is ABLE to get. Like the six o'clock position on a clock, it is as low as is POSSIBLE. Sure you could come in with a shortened radius and then bottom out later but why? You would never get all of the "down" that is possible as in "down, out and forward". Three dimensional impact. Or is that less important?
-i think that given his success he must be hitting up like most of those guys. That is how they reduce the spin and increase the launch angle.
You have a curios web of beliefs and non beliefs that seems constructed as a defense of your previously proposed and still hotly defended hypothesis. All of it making for a huge construct of what? Your opinion. Which you are entitled to. But:
Hybrid Mode
