Wrist action grip choices

[EdZ]

I would like to know the advantages/disadvantages of wrist action choices.

I normally use a 10-2-B wrist action grip - Strong single action. As a swinger I therefore have to pronate my left forearm during the takeaway swivel action, and then supinate during the release swivel action.

It would seem that the need would be less with a 10-2-D - Strong Double action grip, where the left wrist cock is in the plane of the right wrist bend. Is that true? Do you use this grip and find it advantageous? What are the disadvantages of this grip choice?

Does anyone think that another grip choice is better? Why?

Jeff.

Jeff - a very good question, although the thread took an alternate route (perhaps we can get back on topic)

I would suggest that what you think is 10-2-B is perhaps more towards 10-2-A, and that this can require the type of turn/roll you mention.

Per 10-2-B the left thumb and #3 PP are on the 'aft' side of the shaft, for "on plane" impact support. That is a more turned position that the standard training grip you see on many aids would put you in.

See the photo of Homer that Mike O has in in signature, or in the gallery.

To find this position for your left hand, it really is exactly how your left hand hangs naturally at your side. For some that is more turned than for others, but in my case it is at about 45 degrees, not at vertical, or fully turned, as in 10-2-D.

From that position, hanging naturally at your side, lift the left arm straight up to shoulder high. Seeing the left shoulder hinge pin just like a door, and not turning or rolling your hand at all, move your arm back and forth on the horizontal plane.

That is your horizontal hinge motion, on the horizontal plane.

On the angled plane of a swing, that will still have a feel of turn and roll, but you will find it much easier to keep your Rhythm, and square up at impact.

As to the advantages or disadvantages to 10-2-D, it is a very helpful way to learn clubhead control, and most beginners would benefit from at least trying it to learn to lean the shaft forward at impact and hit downplane. It does have somewhat of a power loss IMO over 10-2-B, because you are removing the advantages of accumulator #3 (turn and roll). It is also best used for a fade.

[Jeff]

EdZ

Thanks for commenting.

Very interesting post.

I used to have a 10-2-B grip that was more like 10-2-A, but I have recently adopted your suggestion of ensuring that the left thumb is on the aft side of the club.

I do agree that a 10-2-B grip allows the left hand to roll-over naturally into a horizontal hinging action post-impact. I presume that this natural roll-over action is more difficult with a 10-2-D grip, which would predispose to angled/vertical hinging and a fade.

I never though about the other potential advantage of a 10-2-B grip - that the natural roll over action allows for a better use of PA#3 transfer power. That's a good point.

Considering all these advantages to a 10-2-B grip, wouldn't it be the "best" grip choice for most golfers? Are there any major disadvantages?

What about hitters - is there a "best" grip choice for hitters?

Jeff

[EdZ]

EdZ

.......

I never though about the other potential advantage of a 10-2-B grip - that the natural roll over action allows for a better use of PA#3 transfer power. That's a good point.

Considering all these advantages to a 10-2-B grip, wouldn't it be the "best" grip choice for most golfers? Are there any major disadvantages?

What about hitters - is there a "best" grip choice for hitters?

Jeff

The use of accumulator #3 is really based on the clubs design, with a 10-2-A grip, pitch elbow, CF, and a true snap release, there is a lot more power (speed at least, and mass if lag pressure is maintained) - ala Hogan.

That said, 10-2-A, in all but ideal alignments and rhythm, requires you to 'do' something to square up, which most folks don't (hence why they slice given the 'training' grip).

10-2-B still requires that hinge action, the closing door, to ensure a square face, less power than A, but more than D. the happy medium. Its limitation is that most people steer, so the door still never closes.

10-2-D takes care of squaring up, but at a power loss, and potential direction loss for swingers. The best choice for learning to hit, because you can simply thrust the right arm paddle wheel at the aiming point with a bent right wrist. Since hitters don't use #3.

So with A - better to swing
with B - you can do either
and with D - hitting is a safer bet for control

[Jeff]

Ed,

Excellent post!

Thank you for a great learning experience.

Jeff.

[okie]

World class summary, Edz! Does anybody have any idea how Duval and Couples, Daly (I meekly submit they use more of a 10-2-D) overcome the power reduction that 10-2-D represents for most, due to no transfer power. I use a 10-2-B, but all the long hitters I know have a turned left hand!
Again, fantastic summary!

[Jeff]

Okie

I am curious to see how your question gets answered.

I would add another related question. If a swinger powers the golf swing with a 4:2:3 release pattern, what % of the total power is due to PA#3 release? In other words, does PA#3 produce power independently or does is it simply transfer power?

Another related question is how can PA#3 produce power independently if the release of PA#3 is essentially passive - due to external rotation of the left humerus that happens naturally/passively during the release of PA#4 and a small amount of left forearm supination, which is merely a passive reversal of the left forearm pronation that occurred during the start-up swivel action?

Jeff.

[drewitgolf]

Does anybody have any idea how Duval and Couples, Daly (I meekly submit they use more of a 10-2-D) overcome the power reduction that 10-2-D represents for most, due to no transfer power. I use a 10-2-B, but all the long hitters I know have a turned left hand!

Remember, Grip Types, per 7-2, are taken at Impact Fix per 2-J-1. In the case of the player that does not use Fix 7-8 or adopt it into their Address Routine 3-F-5 than Impact itself can give the best indication for the Grip Type taken. In the case of Couples and many other longer hitters, who starts their motions from Adjusted Address 8-3, their grips are dramatically different from their grips during his Impact 8-10 alignments. Mr. Kelley sated per 7-8, In-put-Out-put Power Ratio also is utterly dependent on Hand Location at Impact.

[Jeff]

Drewitgolf

You wrote-: "Mr. Kelley sated per 7-8, In-put-Out-put Power Ratio also is utterly dependent on Hand Location at Impact."

I understand that to mean that the there must be forward shaft lean at impact with a flat left wrist and bent right wrist. I don't think that it refers to wrist positional variations at impact.

Jeff.

[EdZ]

World class summary, Edz! Does anybody have any idea how Duval and Couples, Daly (I meekly submit they use more of a 10-2-D) overcome the power reduction that 10-2-D represents for most, due to no transfer power. I use a 10-2-B, but all the long hitters I know have a turned left hand!
Again, fantastic summary!

In Couples case, he is one of the few modern day players who really harness CF, and the physics of swinging.

He still has transfer power, and IMO he does this because he 'cups' his left wrist at the top. That allows him to still utilize the physics of a swinger's sequenced release (transfer power), while not having to 'hold on' to avoid hooking (also compensating by his open alignments). Note that his back is taking the force of some of these compensations though.

I would consider Duval more of hitter's move, who doesn't use the swinger's sequenced release and PA #3 much. What he does have is the hitter's 'mass' at impact from his right side. As much as a swinger may be limited by 10-2-D, a hitter can take advantage, allowing a full right side drive of the right arm without fears of hooks.

[DOCW3]

Is the left wrist in 10-2-B more turned than 10-2-A or just the left thumb?
Ref: 10-2-A @ V/V/T and 10-2-B @ V/V/A.

Thanks

DRW

Jeff - a very good question, although the thread took an alternate route (perhaps we can get back on topic)

I would suggest that what you think is 10-2-B is perhaps more towards 10-2-A, and that this can require the type of turn/roll you mention.

Per 10-2-B the left thumb and #3 PP are on the 'aft' side of the shaft, for "on plane" impact support. That is a more turned position that the standard training grip you see on many aids would put you in.

See the photo of Homer that Mike O has in in signature, or in the gallery.

To find this position for your left hand, it really is exactly how your left hand hangs naturally at your side. For some that is more turned than for others, but in my case it is at about 45 degrees, not at vertical, or fully turned, as in 10-2-D.

From that position, hanging naturally at your side, lift the left arm straight up to shoulder high. Seeing the left shoulder hinge pin just like a door, and not turning or rolling your hand at all, move your arm back and forth on the horizontal plane.

That is your horizontal hinge motion, on the horizontal plane.

On the angled plane of a swing, that will still have a feel of turn and roll, but you will find it much easier to keep your Rhythm, and square up at impact.

As to the advantages or disadvantages to 10-2-D, it is a very helpful way to learn clubhead control, and most beginners would benefit from at least trying it to learn to lean the shaft forward at impact and hit downplane. It does have somewhat of a power loss IMO over 10-2-B, because you are removing the advantages of accumulator #3 (turn and roll). It is also best used for a fade.