1-L? The Machine? It doesnt have two Shoulders how can it do Rotated? You talking Angled Hinge arrangement?
Its a model , only, a good one too for understanding the inherent geometry of an Angular Motion on an Inclined Plane with a Hinge Action. But we're talking human motion now arent we? More levers?
So you saying you can do Rotated/Rotated with an axis tilt, a hip slide , a weight shift? I dont think so. Once the right shoulder drops via the hip slide axis tilt .......it isnt Rotated on the way down any more.
The helicopter blades do not describe single plane of motion back and down, when you tilt your axis. Good thing too , to my mind. I like to get the Right Shoulder closer to the ball and tilt its plane of motion towards the ball/plane line.
O.B.
As I understand it "Rotated" is Turning around the post. 1-L. In either direction. I think one could "relocate" (tilt, shift etc.) the shoulders at almost any point as long as the TURN is around the post and NOT around a TILT axis. You can also get the shoulder closer to the ball by leaning the post towards the ball.
I could be wrong, but I don't think 1L is the chapter in the book I would use to compare components. 1L covers the basic geometry. I think it's difficult to use 1L to explain things like shoulder, feet, knee, and hip components. I think you may be painting yourself into a corner by not looking further in this discussion...
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
When I see "Rotated" I think 10-13-C which is, turn around the spine or could be turn about a post.
I see little use but it is possible and would be 1-L. this would not be on a practical plane for full swings.
The original question on FLAT and Rotated BS planes ( where the rotated plane may be too steep) I would answer is because it intercepts a starting point for a practical DS plane.
Most think this to be the TSP. I think of TSP as being a point-any point- from which a practical DS plane can be constructed.
Not that I really want to get into this here but--
Trying to create a machine that represents all elements of the golf stroke is difficult. Most attempts have resorted to the "Double Pendulum" model. In my simple mind- NOT GOOD. I have been thinking along the lines of HAND PATH GEOMETRY and single pendulum. And if the hand path geometry can be expressed as a mathematically determined figure the computer (real computer) is "home free.
So, I started thinking as the Hand Path Model being Hyperboloid of single sheet and the club is simple pendulum
.
When I see "Rotated" I think 10-13-C which is, turn around the spine or could be turn about a post.
I see little use but it is possible and would be 1-L. this would not be on a practical plane for full swings.
The original question on FLAT and Rotated BS planes ( where the rotated plane may be too steep) I would answer is because it intercepts a starting point for a practical DS plane.
Most think this to be the TSP. I think of TSP as being a point-any point- from which a practical DS plane can be constructed.
Not that I really want to get into this here but--
Trying to create a machine that represents all elements of the golf stroke is difficult. Most attempts have resorted to the "Double Pendulum" model. In my simple mind- NOT GOOD. I have been thinking along the lines of HAND PATH GEOMETRY and single pendulum. And if the hand path geometry can be expressed as a mathematically determined figure the computer (real computer) is "home free.
So, I started thinking as the Hand Path Model being Hyperboloid of single sheet and the club is simple pendulum
.
HB
I think its another definition thing again. To get Homer you gotta get his point of view I believe, his perspective , eye ball wise. DTL, caddy, players view etc. D sorted me out on one of these a couple of months ago as I recall. Its easy to get things mixed up. Homer can also, in words, shift his visual point of view quickly. Angle of Attack, Arc of Approach......different points of view of the same clubhead path. Confusing but very necessary.
Quote:
10-13-C ROTATED The Rotated Shoulder Turn moves the Shoulder in a “normal” path – at right angles to the spine. The Rotated Backstroke Shoulder Turn can locate a Turned Shoulder Plane Angle. The Downstroke Turn may shift to On Plane for whatever Plane Angle or Variation is used. Or it may continue in its “Rotated” pattern simply as transportation for the Power Package, as in –B above. Downstroke use is normally confined to the Shiftless Hip Turn. Of course, if the Waist Bend is exactly right, a Rotated Shoulder Turn may also be “On Plane” – in both directions – a simplified equivalent to 10-13-A.
"At right angles to the spine" here to me implying looking DTL at a golfer, who given waste bend will show his shoulders describing a motion which is at right angles to his spine but tilted forward vis a vis the ground. Like Mr Woods in that photo above say.
I think its another definition thing again. To get Homer you gotta get his point of view I believe, his perspective , eye ball wise. DTL, caddy, players view etc. D sorted me out on one of these a couple of months ago as I recall. Its easy to get things mixed up. Homer can also, in words, shift his visual point of view quickly. Angle of Attack, Arc of Approach......different points of view of the same clubhead path. Confusing but very necessary.
"At right angles to the spine" here to me implying looking DTL at a golfer, who given waste bend will show his shoulders describing a motion which is at right angles to his spine but tilted forward vis a vis the ground. Like Mr Woods in that photo above say.
I am comfortable with HK's view. This should be easy geometry. The component- Shoulder turn, The variations- HK illustrates 5,
lets reduce it to 3. We place a disk centered at the golfers axis of rotation. put a point on the circumferance of the disk.
#1 the axis and disk are not rotated- Varation ZERO
#2 The disk and axis are rotated such that the disk plane is always perpendicular to the axis of rotation- variation ROTATED
#3 The disk plane is not perpendicular to the axis and therefore the disk will appear to "wobble" on the axis as the disk and axis are rotated. This is the variation that exists for "flat" backstroke and "on plane" downstroke or other planes that dont meet #1 or #2.
There is more geometry. If, the DS plane Top is not precisely located for a proper "wobble" the golfer can not obtain/maintain a straight plane line without compensations. This "wobble is set BOTH by amount of backstroke rotation and axis tilt at/near the top.
Just my opinion-All disclaimers apply
Ps. Which leads to the question - Should the shoulder be on a downstroke plane to the plane line or to support the hands?
HB
Last edited by HungryBear : 03-12-2011 at 12:58 PM.
I am comfortable with HK's view. This should be easy geometry. The component- Shoulder turn, The variations- HK illustrates 5,
lets reduce it to 3. We place a disk centered at the golfers axis of rotation. put a point on the circumferance of the disk.
#1 the axis and disk are not rotated- Varation ZERO
#2 The disk and axis are rotated such that the disk plane is always perpendicular to the axis of rotation- variation ROTATED
#3 The disk plane is not perpendicular to the axis and therefore the disk will appear to "wobble" on the axis as the disk and axis are rotated. This is the variation that exists for "flat" backstroke and "on plane" downstroke or other planes that dont meet #1 or #2.
There is more geometry. If, the DS plane Top is not precisely located for a proper "wobble" the golfer can not obtain/maintain a straight plane line without compensations. This "wobble is set BOTH by amount of backstroke rotation and axis tilt at/near the top.
Just my opinion-All disclaimers apply
Ps. Which leads to the question - Should the shoulder be on a downstroke plane to the plane line or to support the hands?
HB
Interesting analysis.
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
#3 The disk plane is not perpendicular to the axis and therefore the disk will appear to "wobble" on the axis as the disk and axis are rotated. This is the variation that exists for "flat" backstroke and "on plane" downstroke or other planes that dont meet #1 or #2.
Ps. Which leads to the question - Should the shoulder be on a downstroke plane to the plane line or to support the hands?
HB
Standard Shoulder Turn....Flat Back/On Plane combo. One great description of this was from Ted Fort (aka Yoda's Luke) . Imagine your Right Shoulder being a paint brush that paints a "7" in the air......flat back and then down the plane, diagonally. Like a 7 when you look back at what your shoulder is painting. If you know what I mean. So its not describing the same motion back and down, two different motions, directionally. Its a bit counter intuitive I know, but its a bit of genius, cant tell you how much this has helped me. And upon investigation we do this sort of thing all day long, doing all sorts of motions. We direct our Hands and the Pivot responds.
To answer the question in your P.S. The Right Shoulder can only go down the Inclined Plane if its on the Inclined Plane at Top to begin with. Making for a TSP plane angle by definition, a Plane ( from Hands to Base Line) that also runs through the Turned Right Shoulder at Top. So the Right Shoulder is doing both ......down plane motion and supporting, directly pulling the Hands in Startdown. Made necessary by the Downstroke Sequence where you let your Pivot pull the inert Hands, Arms in Startdown. Since your Pivot (right shoulder) is pulling it best be pulling somewhere, ideally at the Plane LIne given that the Hands are going to follow it directly , linearly.
If I had a scanner down here (im on vacation) id do some drawings . Hmm maybe Ill try photo'ing something with my phone....
Standard Shoulder Turn....Flat Back/On Plane combo. One great description of this was from Ted Fort (aka Yoda's Luke) . Imagine your Right Shoulder being a paint brush that paints a "7" in the air......flat back and then down the plane, diagonally. Like a 7 when you look back at what your shoulder is painting. If you know what I mean. So its not describing the same motion back and down, two different motions, directionally. Its a bit counter intuitive I know, but its a bit of genius, cant tell you how much this has helped me. And upon investigation we do this sort of thing all day long, doing all sorts of motions. We direct our Hands and the Pivot responds.
To answer the question in your P.S. The Right Shoulder can only go down the Inclined Plane if its on the Inclined Plane at Top to begin with. Making for a TSP plane angle by definition, a Plane ( from Hands to Base Line) that also runs through the Turned Right Shoulder at Top. So the Right Shoulder is doing both ......down plane motion and supporting, directly pulling the Hands in Startdown. Made necessary by the Downstroke Sequence where you let your Pivot pull the inert Hands, Arms in Startdown. Since your Pivot (right shoulder) is pulling it best be pulling somewhere, ideally at the Plane LIne given that the Hands are going to follow it directly , linearly.
If I had a scanner down here (im on vacation) id do some drawings . Hmm maybe Ill try photo'ing something with my phone....
The first part is good. condition #3 is met by the 7 image. Both the backstroke and downstroke must intersect at the point of the 7 which must be precisely located so the downstroke plane is parallel to the plane line otherwise compensations are required.
The second part- I believe that HK "prefers" the shoulder move on the same plane as the hands- 7-13 paragraph #2. This is logical as all energy to the club flows through the hands. therefore any "off plane" to the hands will be dangerous.
The downstroke subject is moving well beyond the Back-stroke question this thread is based on. Therefore, and also because I have learned over time that any perception of challenge to established dogma never has a good end. Perhaps, we can return to it at a different time in another, more appropriate thread.
HB
Originally Posted by HungryBear
#3 The disk plane is not perpendicular to the axis and therefore the disk will appear to "wobble" on the axis as the disk and axis are rotated. This is the variation that exists for "flat" backstroke and "on plane" downstroke
HB
A challenge to "established dogma"? What the? That's a pretty insulting and kind of weird comment. Thanks. What'd I do but try to answer your question politely? We're talking about golf for frig sakes. Shoulder turns! Yeah I see the forces lined up against you. Total conspiracy.
Let me respond to the second quote above in another way then. The way I chose not to first time around.
You dont understand what Standard Shoulder Turn is obviously. The Right Shoulder , the Hands taxi driver during Startdown, seeks out the Plane Line as if it was going to hit the ball. Small the heck out of the ball. Its not a merely a fixed Shoulder/Spine arrangement. That'd be Pivot to Hands. The Hands are directing.
Ob
PS The answer to the original question lays in the downstroke, to my mind. .........It is not beyond the scope of this thread. Not at all.
A challenge to "established dogma"? What the? That's a pretty insulting and kind of weird comment. Thanks. What'd I do but try to answer your question politely? We're talking about golf for frig sakes. Shoulder turns! Yeah I see the forces lined up against you. Total conspiracy.
Let me respond to the second quote above in another way then. The way I chose not to first time around.
You dont understand what Standard Shoulder Turn is obviously.
Ob
PS The answer to the original question lays in the downstroke, to my mind. .........It is not beyond the scope of this thread. Not at all.
LOL - happy to find out it's not just me needing that bang the head against the wall icon.
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Hybrid Mode
