I think we're saying the same thing here maybe cause that only happens when their both on the same plane, ie when the Right Shoulder is on the Inclined Plane in Startdown (TSP by definition). Startdown the period of Shoulder of Acceleration by definition. Hands are always on the Inclined Plane , if the Right Shoulders gets on it too at Top...you got a TSP angle of which there is a range I suppose.
I tried doing a few drawings, when you get into all the parameters , TSP, Flat vs Rotated , zero or single or double shift.......it gets messy. Need to do them to proper scale to make the implications to shaft angle at impact, waste bend clear and relevant. Hard to do on the beach.... But they would describe TGM's Standard Shoulder Turn , S and T Rotated/? Double Shift and I was looking at Matt Kuchar there in pencil form too on one of them.
Im thinking this'd be a good thing to doodle out .....the photos in the book are great but some simple stick men that would also combine the various related components (TSP, Standard Shoulder Turn, Zero Shift or minimal a shift) would make for a nice presentation of one of Homers most brilliant ideas....... Maybe we could Yoda to offer an opinion to make sure we're book compliant. One thing though .....I dont think you can do it with a hanky under your arms. You need independent arm motion (independent of the PIvot).
In any event .....Why is the Alignment Golf Shoulder Turn "Flat" on the backswing (only, not on the way down)? To try to get the Right Shoulder over to the Elbow Plane or as close to it as is possible. So as not to necessitate a shift of any large degree during the Downswing. Final final answer. And of note. Just because the Right Shoulder turns Flat does not mean the Hands are going back flat given Independent Arm Motion. A free connection where the Arms meet the Shoulders (Pivot). Right Shoulder turns IN, Hands go UP , but they meet up on a TSP and share a ride down the Inclined Plane..
I keep saying that bit.....its the brilliant result of these component combinations, this pattern. Genius. That or Im totally crazy.....or both I suppose, if you want to catalogue all the possibilities , Homer would.
Homer listed TSP for the Plane Angle, Zero Shift and Standard Shoulder turn for both Basic Patterns of 12-1 and 2. You can argue whether Zero is really possible but assuming minimal shift as a goal anyways ........He was clear in his preferences and from my experience Id have to say he's correct. Very correct. But not commonly understood maybe? Its too bad, it'd be revolutionary and its already 40 years old. That said you do have options.....not saying Double Shift is not workable.
The downstroke subject is moving well beyond the Back-stroke question this thread is based on. Therefore, and also because I have learned over time that any perception of challenge to established dogma never has a good end. Perhaps, we can return to it at a different time in another, more appropriate thread.
The downstroke subject is moving well beyond the Back-stroke question this thread is based on. Therefore, and also because I have learned over time that any perception of challenge to established dogma never has a good end. Perhaps, we can return to it at a different time in another, more appropriate thread.
HB
Originally Posted by HungryBear
#3 The disk plane is not perpendicular to the axis and therefore the disk will appear to "wobble" on the axis as the disk and axis are rotated. This is the variation that exists for "flat" backstroke and "on plane" downstroke
HB
A challenge to "established dogma"? What the? That's a pretty insulting and kind of weird comment. Thanks. What'd I do but try to answer your question politely? We're talking about golf for frig sakes. Shoulder turns! Yeah I see the forces lined up against you. Total conspiracy.
Let me respond to the second quote above in another way then. The way I chose not to first time around.
You dont understand what Standard Shoulder Turn is obviously. The Right Shoulder , the Hands taxi driver during Startdown, seeks out the Plane Line as if it was going to hit the ball. Small the heck out of the ball. Its not a merely a fixed Shoulder/Spine arrangement. That'd be Pivot to Hands. The Hands are directing.
Ob
PS The answer to the original question lays in the downstroke, to my mind. .........It is not beyond the scope of this thread. Not at all.
A challenge to "established dogma"? What the? That's a pretty insulting and kind of weird comment. Thanks. What'd I do but try to answer your question politely? We're talking about golf for frig sakes. Shoulder turns! Yeah I see the forces lined up against you. Total conspiracy.
Let me respond to the second quote above in another way then. The way I chose not to first time around.
You dont understand what Standard Shoulder Turn is obviously.
Ob
PS The answer to the original question lays in the downstroke, to my mind. .........It is not beyond the scope of this thread. Not at all.
LOL - happy to find out it's not just me needing that bang the head against the wall icon.
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
LOL - happy to find out it's not just me needing that bang the head against the wall icon.
HI.
Taking a mental health break from lawyers and divorce stuff to ask a question that will help my serenity/golf regarding shoulders.
I was looking straight down at the optic yellow range ball the other day and wondered if I just tried to come straight down on it with my irons, sort "OVER MY SHOULDER" and get maximum DOWN, would I automatically be Hitting and wouldn't it be a steep shoulder turn? I'd plant to start the Pivot and Thrust.
Wouldn't the steepness fire the ball out like a rifle shot, if I do it correctly? Why don't more golfers do this given windy Spring conditions and dry summer fairways? Is there an optimum way to sort of "pinball" the golf ball and isn't in a steep shoulder attack?
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 03-14-2011 at 12:32 PM.
Taking a mental health break from lawyers and divorce stuff to ask a question that will help my serenity/golf regarding shoulders.
I was looking straight down at the optic yellow range ball the other day and wondered if I just tried to come straight down on it with my irons, sort "OVER MY SHOULDER" and get maximum DOWN, would I automatically be Hitting and wouldn't it be a steep shoulder turn? I'd plant to start the Pivot and Thrust.
Wouldn't the steepness fire the ball out like a rifle shot, if I do it correctly? Why don't more golfers do this given windy Spring conditions and dry summer fairways? Is there an optimum way to sort of "pinball" the golf ball and isn't in a steep shoulder attack?
ICT
When working with Lynn you are going to learn all about the right shoulder moving down the plane, and your chest "covering" the ball through impact. You are going to learn to turn your right hip back, shift your weight into your right leg while staying in the center of the tripod. You are going to be AMAZED at what you can accomplish. I've seen it, and nobody else can explain it as YODA does in person. I am so excited, I think you will have a "Frank" like epiphany!!! I still work with Frank, and we continue to reinforce the foundation YODA taught him.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
The hips can slide forward and the hip slant and shoulder slant not immediately "spin the fly wheel" . . . you'll see this in lots of players . . . hips and shoulders maintain their slant as the hips move forward . . .
Just re reading this. Slide with a Delayed Turn (Hogan) will not spin the fly wheel agreed. You can not spin without turning. Turning, the Pivot as a giant rotor, ground up sequence, one of the two divergent vectors etc.
But the Slide of the Hips given a centered head will tilt the right shoulder closer to the ground , or given forward waist bend down plane towards the ball.
Buck baby, I think you are talking shoulder "slant" looking DTL while Im talking "tilt" caddy view? Maybe? I dunno.
Imagine Hogan unsliding his hips in that first pic below his right shoulder would move up, no? Wouldnt be Hogan anymore, man that guy had a great set of hips.
I dunno. Its way easier to see this shoulder axis tilt when the shoulders arent turned like they are Top. Thats why I picked that one there at impact. But the same tilt is there prior to Startdown for Hogan.
PS just noticed the ellipses have a slide depicted ....never noticed that before. See how the Hip ellipse has slid target wards. That guy knew exactly what he was doing to include that in the drawing. Or not, whats up with the following ones though? What the.... Looks like he's hitting downhill all of a sudden mid swing. Hmmm editorial maybe? Hoover's FBI maybe? Didnt want the commies getting ahold of our golf secrets. Yup .....its all making sense to me now.
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