don’t know the yellow book well enough to know if this is totally TGM compliant, but here is how i view swinging vs. hitting:
first, i think it is helpful to look at the motion at shoulder level…so, grab a club and set up…then bring the club up to shoulder level and make your stroke…if you swing, at some point your trail hand should rotate to be palm skyward with the clubshaft and clubhead still roughly parallel to the plane of the shoulders…the butt end will be the closet part of the club to the “ball” and is the part you pull back toward the “ball” until release when the palm rotates back from skyward (parallel to the plane) to targetward (roughly perpendicular to the plane) and the clubface to the “ball”…if you hit, you keep the trail palm facing the “ball” and rotate the clubshaft and clubhead (around PP#1) to be roughly perpendicular to the plane of the shoulders and PP#1 is what you push back to the “ball” until release rotates the clubshaft and clubhead back to parallel to the plane and to the “ball”
don’t know the yellow book well enough to know if this is totally TGM compliant, but here is how i view swinging vs. hitting:
first, i think it is helpful to look at the motion at shoulder level…so, grab a club and set up…then bring the club up to shoulder level and make your stroke…if you swing, at some point your trail hand should rotate to be palm skyward with the clubshaft and clubhead still roughly parallel to the plane of the shoulders…the butt end will be the closet part of the club to the “ball” and is the part you pull back toward the “ball” until release when the palm rotates back from skyward (parallel to the plane) to targetward (roughly perpendicular to the plane) and the clubface to the “ball”…if you hit, you keep the trail palm facing the “ball” and rotate the clubshaft and clubhead (around PP#1) to be roughly perpendicular to the plane of the shoulders and PP#1 is what you push back to the “ball” until release rotates the clubshaft and clubhead back to parallel to the plane and to the “ball”
-hcw
You have described the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) and its Sequenced Release (4-D-0)which requires the Left palm to be Swivelled On Plane during Start Up. It remains On Plane with the palm riding the wheel rim until the Release Swivel takes place, rotating the Shaft back on to its own Plane, ready to apply the selected Hinge Action (usually Dual Horizontal).
The Hitter has identical Left Hand to the Plane relationship as the Swinger at the Top, however it got there in a different manner. Instead of a abrubt Start Up Swivel, a Hitter turns his Left Wrist gradually just like an Angled Hinging motion. And so it comes back down into Release in the same way, a Simulataneous Release Motion.
You have described the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) and its Sequenced Release (4-D-0)which requires the Left palm to be Swivelled On Plane during Start Up. It remains On Plane with the palm riding the wheel rim until the Release Swivel takes place, rotating the Shaft back on to its own Plane, ready to apply the selected Hinge Action (usually Dual Horizontal).
The Hitter has identical Left Hand to the Plane relationship as the Swinger at the Top, however it got there in a different manner. Instead of a abrubt Start Up Swivel, a Hitter turns his Left Wrist gradually just like an Angled Hinging motion. And so it comes back down into Release in the same way, a Simulataneous Release Motion.
For the hitter, the left wrist turns and rolls not on its own accord but because of the turning of the body and the motion of the arms.
Different Left Wrist Actions produces different Right Forearm Positions at the Top Per 7-3.
"For Hitting (10-19-A), the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with-and directly opposed to-the motion of the On Plane Loading Action (7-22) of the entire Primary Lever Assembly (6-A) not just the Clubshaft, and this alignment maintained through Impact (2-J-3,4-D).
For Swinging (10-19-C) the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with - and directly opposed to - the motion of the On Plane Loading Actino of the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Clubshaft) and this alignment maintained through Impact."
In English, this means that at the end of the stroke, the hitter will (should) have the Right Forearm perpendicular to the Left Forearm and the swinger will (should) have the Right Forearm perpendicular to the clubshaft.
This is a valuable checkpoint to see if you are actually executing the desired Left Wrist Action correctly.
You have described the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) and its Sequenced Release (4-D-0)which requires the Left palm to be Swivelled On Plane during Start Up. It remains On Plane with the palm riding the wheel rim until the Release Swivel takes place, rotating the Shaft back on to its own Plane, ready to apply the selected Hinge Action (usually Dual Horizontal).
The Hitter has identical Left Hand to the Plane relationship as the Swinger at the Top, however it got there in a different manner. Instead of a abrubt Start Up Swivel, a Hitter turns his Left Wrist gradually just like an Angled Hinging motion. And so it comes back down into Release in the same way, a Simulataneous Release Motion.
Tong, you moved to the top of the list with your studies of the Golfing Machine- I would suggest one clarification to your post.
1) Tongzilla Quote "You have described the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) and its Sequenced Release (4-D-0)which requires the Left palm to be Swivelled On Plane during Start Up."
Definition #1: Start-up is 8-4- the very initial stage of motion between address and the backstroke.
Definition #2: Swivelling is an independent forearm rotation.
You won't find anything in the Golfing Machine that "requires" the left palm be swivelled "on plane" during start up- for swinging (or hitting). If you want it to be "My Way" (page VII) then great, but not "The Way" (page VII). And even that particular "My Way" has potential issues of concern- not setting up a swinging motion- the primary one. A position golf ideology in regards to the left wrist - the secondary one, (specifically in regards to having the left wrist "on-plane" at some specific location during the start-up/backstroke). 7-18, 10-18 cover this area.
In summary, it's easy to get too specific at any stage in understanding the Golfing Machine. So it's a process of understanding the specifics and then drawing back and making sure that you haven't destroyed the big picture while painting the small one. Mr. Kelley was the ultimate "concept man" in that regard. Good Luck in that journey!
Tong, you moved to the top of the list with your studies of the Golfing Machine- I would suggest one clarification to your post.
1) Tongzilla Quote "You have described the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) and its Sequenced Release (4-D-0)which requires the Left palm to be Swivelled On Plane during Start Up."
Definition #1: Start-up is 8-4- the very initial stage of motion between address and the backstroke.
Definition #2: Swivelling is an independent forearm rotation.
You won't find anything in the Golfing Machine that "requires" the left palm be swivelled "on plane" during start up- for swinging (or hitting). If you want it to be "My Way" (page VII) then great, but not "The Way" (page VII). And even that particular "My Way" has potential issues of concern- not setting up a swinging motion- the primary one. A position golf ideology in regards to the left wrist - the secondary one, (specifically in regards to having the left wrist "on-plane" at some specific location during the start-up/backstroke). 7-18, 10-18 cover this area.
In summary, it's easy to get too specific at any stage in understanding the Golfing Machine. So it's a process of understanding the specifics and then drawing back and making sure that you haven't destroyed the big picture while painting the small one. Mr. Kelley was the ultimate "concept man" in that regard. Good Luck in that journey!
Great to see you posting again, Mike
Lets clarify and be more precise about what a Swivel is.
A Swivel is a rotation of the Left Wrist from a Turned position to a Vertical position or from a Vertical position to a Turned position. The former is what we usually call “Standard Wrist Action on Downstroke”, or more commonly known as a “Release Swivel”. The latter is known as “Standard Wrist Action on Backstroke” or “Start Up Swivel".
What does “Turned” mean? Per 4-C-2, “When TURNED…the left palm faces directly toward that Plane."
Putting both these concepts together, this means the left palm is “Swiveled On Plane”, per my previous post.
So what the Start Up Swivel does is to put the Left Arm Flying Wedge On Plane, so it can remain On Plane until Release, just before the Release Swivel takes the Left Arm Flying Wedge (or the left palm) Off Plane to get into position to apply the selected Hinge Action.
With a Flat Left Wrist, the palm of the Left Hand must be On Plane for the Club to remain On Plane.
Lets clarify and be more precise about what a Swivel is.
A Swivel is a rotation of the Left Wrist from a Turned position to a Vertical position or from a Vertical position to a Turned position. The former is what we usually call “Standard Wrist Action on Downstroke”, or more commonly known as a “Release Swivel”. The latter is known as “Standard Wrist Action on Backstroke” or “Start Up Swivel".
What does “Turned” mean? Per 4-C-2, “When TURNED…the left palm faces directly toward that Plane."
Putting both these concepts together, this means the left palm is “Swiveled On Plane”, per my previous post.
So what the Start Up Swivel does is to put the Left Arm Flying Wedge On Plane, so it can remain On Plane until Release, just before the Release Swivel takes the Left Arm Flying Wedge (or the left palm) Off Plane to get into position to apply the selected Hinge Action.
With a Flat Left Wrist, the palm of the Left Hand must be On Plane for the Club to remain On Plane.
PS: photos can be deceiving!
Do you think a Swinger can feel or should focus on Release Swivel into Hinge Action? Seems like things happen WAY too fast to focus on Release Swivel in a full power stroke?
I know this is the way it works, but if somebody is actually working on this could it lead to irratic alignments of the Clubface?
Do you think a Swinger can feel or should focus on Release Swivel into Hinge Action? Seems like things happen WAY too fast to focus on Release Swivel in a full power stroke?
I know this is the way it works, but if somebody is actually working on this could it lead to irratic alignments of the Clubface?
That's why you should practice Swivelling and Hinge Action in sloooow motion with a racquet first. You'll be surprised at how your alignments will leak through to your golf game. Also do lots of chips and pitches (haven't you heard that one before )
Is Drag Loading and Drive Loading really what differentiates a Swinger from a Hitter? I have come to the conclusion that the answer is no.
Tong,
I respectfully disagree...more below...
Originally Posted by tongzilla
It is possible for you to Drag Load at Startdown and still Push the Club through Impact, so you will ultimately be classified as a Hitter. Or you can Drive Load but Pull the Club with Left Arm Centrifugal Power, hence you're a Swinger. I believe the former is actually quite common on Tour.
Any comments?
This is a common misconception of the essence of Hitting/Swinging. Loading, as in Drag/Drive, is defined by how we accelerate (or load) the clubshaft (or secondary lever assembly). If one begins with dragging - any opposing movement, such as driving radially (or crosswise) against the shaft will cause the shaft to lose it's initial flex (or load)...and the lag. It inevitable. The shaft will react to the acceleration method - either longitudinally or radially - and any deviation will cause the shaft to 'catch up'. Same with beginning with drive loading and then trying to change to Drag.
Don't be misled by what appears to be happening per 6-H-0. There are all kinds of compensations - Azinger swings with no swivel and a hitting type motion. But that 'punch shot', no matter appearance, doesnt negate his acceleration method.
Let me know if there is any fog on this issue or if I am offbase.
Lets clarify and be more precise about what a Swivel is.
A Swivel is a rotation of the Left Wrist from a Turned position to a Vertical position or from a Vertical position to a Turned position. The former is what we usually call “Standard Wrist Action on Downstroke”, or more commonly known as a “Release Swivel”. The latter is known as “Standard Wrist Action on Backstroke” or “Start Up Swivel".
What does “Turned” mean? Per 4-C-2, “When TURNED…the left palm faces directly toward that Plane."
Putting both these concepts together, this means the left palm is “Swiveled On Plane”, per my previous post.
So what the Start Up Swivel does is to put the Left Arm Flying Wedge On Plane, so it can remain On Plane until Release, just before the Release Swivel takes the Left Arm Flying Wedge (or the left palm) Off Plane to get into position to apply the selected Hinge Action.
With a Flat Left Wrist, the palm of the Left Hand must be On Plane for the Club to remain On Plane.
PS: photos can be deceiving!
Okay...Okay....say hello to my little friend. (just kidding).
Boy Tong, I am starting to look like I have a vendetta! I dont, trust me. I love your enthusiasm and posts.
However...once again...I respectfully disagree.
Originally Posted by tongzilla
Lets clarify and be more precise about what a Swivel is.
A Swivel is a rotation of the Left Wrist from a Turned position to a Vertical position or from a Vertical position to a Turned position.
May I ask where in the book your reference is for this? The best of my knowledge is in 2-G, the 'true rotation of the hands' in impact with no relation or reference to 'turned' to 'vertical'. Moreover, Swivel is not mentioned in 4-C. 4-C are specific Wrist positions - versus 'Swivel' which is more general and not limited to specificity in that context.
Originally Posted by tongzilla
The latter is known as “Standard Wrist Action on Backstroke” or “Start Up Swivel".
This isnt necessarily for you....but....can anyone show me where 'start up' swivel is in the book? Just curious. Not that its not in it - I just dont remember it, nor can I find it (yes - I have my book now!).
Originally Posted by tongzilla
So what the Start Up Swivel does is to put the Left Arm Flying Wedge On Plane, so it can remain On Plane until Release, just before the Release Swivel takes the Left Arm Flying Wedge (or the left palm) Off Plane to get into position to apply the selected Hinge Action.
Disagree once more. If the entire left forearm wedge is onplane (the entire left arm) - the left shoulder must be onplane...and on the backstroke, I feel it would need to be above plane (due to no axis tilt)....
Again...not trying to nitpick, and love the posts, etc. But in a public forum, much can be mistrued. And - if I am wrong - which Lynn has pointed out on multiple occasions on TGM forum - I am all for learning!!!
Okay...Okay....say hello to my little friend. (just kidding).
Boy Tong, I am starting to look like I have a vendetta! I dont, trust me. I love your enthusiasm and posts.
However...once again...I respectfully disagree.
May I ask where in the book your reference is for this? The best of my knowledge is in 2-G, the 'true rotation of the hands' in impact with no relation or reference to 'turned' to 'vertical'. Moreover, Swivel is not mentioned in 4-C. 4-C are specific Wrist positions - versus 'Swivel' which is more general and not limited to specificity in that context.
This isnt necessarily for you....but....can anyone show me where 'start up' swivel is in the book? Just curious. Not that its not in it - I just dont remember it, nor can I find it (yes - I have my book now!).
Disagree once more. If the entire left forearm wedge is onplane (the entire left arm) - the left shoulder must be onplane...and on the backstroke, I feel it would need to be above plane (due to no axis tilt)....
Again...not trying to nitpick, and love the posts, etc. But in a public forum, much can be mistrued. And - if I am wrong - which Lynn has pointed out on multiple occasions on TGM forum - I am all for learning!!!
Patrick
Hi Patrick,
I love the way you question things.
Too many people take it for granted that whatever has "been around" has to be correct.
Nothing could be further from the truth. As we have all found out in our own lives from time to time, a myth usually develops a life of its own and then before we even realise it, we take it to be the "Truth."
Instead, we all need to adopt an attitude just like yours. It is like in the book of Acts where "the Bereans searched the scriptures daily to see if it were so."
)
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