I agree with you 100%. I, for example, am an imperfect golfer due to a host of physical disabilities eg. a severe lack of hula-hula flexibility. I therefore have a compensated downswing pivot action. After studying TGM, I got the idea from TGM to start the downswing pivot action with a right shoulder thrust action rather than a pelvic shift-rotation movement. The final "effect" is the same - the downswing pivot action starts from the ground-up. I am also aware of the magic of the right forearm - although my conscious mind is focused on the right shoulder thrust action, I am very cognizant of the fact that the downswing pivot action is subservient to the greater goal of moving the right forearm in a certain way down towards the impact zone that allows me to trace a SPL and that also allows the right forearm to end up behind the shaft at impact so as to support the shaft through impact. At times, when my downswing pivot action is unusually fluid, I switch my conscious mind to my right forearm action and I often "feel" that I am throwing the right forearm from the top of the backstroke position. I am still hoping to discover from DG whether that "right forearm throw" feeling is the same right forearm throw action that Tom talks about in his swing videos.
Jeff.
Thanks Jeff, glad we are on the same page. HK was not trying to rewrite the physics side of golf (ie. pivot powers the powerpackage, swing from ground up , hips first- hands last)...all of that is a given...
His break-through was identifying the role of the pp3 and/or forearm in controlling the overall motion and the constraints that are required to allow that to occur.
To me, TGM is focusing on these elements...the physics is taken for granted.
His break-through was identifying the role of the pp3 and/or forearm in controlling the overall motion and the constraints that are required to allow that to occur.
Yoda - you wrote-: "The Pivot Delivers the Bent Right Elbow into Release.---
The Straightening Right Elbow Delivers the Left Arm and Club into Impact and Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position)."
You don't state whether the right elbow straightening is an active or a passive phenomenon.
It is my understanding, from reading the TGM book, that in a swinger's action, the pivot delivers the entire power package assembly intact to the delivery position, and that release of the power package then happens due to the following phenomenon.
When the downswing pivot action subsides in the mid downswing, the left arm is catapulted off the chest (via the pivot-activated release of power accumulator #4) and therefore the left arm is moving towards the target with enough momentum to reach, and pass, the impact position. The right elbow then straightens passively in this scenario, with no need for any isotonic right triceps muscle action. The right triceps only has to have enough isometric tone to allow the right forearm to be driven forward so that it keeps up with the left arm, and simultaneously maintains extensor action throughout the entire downswing.
Does my description represent your understanding of a swinger's action?
In the Tom Tomasello video tapes, he talks of the two forearms pulling the entire power package down to waist level while the body clears out of the way. He then states that the "right arm hits the ball", which seemingly implies that the right elbow straightening action is an active action. Therefore, Tom Tomasello is apparently describing a 4-barrel swing action activated by the right arm throw action - in the following sequence 4, 1,2,3. Power accumulator #4 is released by the "two forearms" pulling the entire power package downwards and thereby simultaneously propelling the left arm forward (while the pivot action simply allows the body to get out of the way), and then the right elbow straightens actively releasing power accumulator #1.
Is that how you understand the TT right arm swing action that DG recommends?
Why would DG believe that TT's right arm swing action is preferable to the standard pivot-driven triple barrel swing action (4,2,3)?
In the Tom Tomasello video tapes, he talks of the two forearms pulling the entire power package down to waist level while the body clears out of the way. He then states that the "right arm hits the ball", which seemingly implies that the right elbow straightening action is an active action. Therefore, Tom Tomasello is apparently describing a 4-barrel swing action activated by the right arm throw action - in the following sequence 4, 1,2,3. Power accumulator #4 is released by the "two forearms" pulling the entire power package downwards and thereby simultaneously propelling the left arm forward (while the pivot action simply allows the body to get out of the way), and then the right elbow straightens actively releasing power accumulator #1.
Is that how you understand the TT right arm swing action that DG recommends?
Why would DG believe that TT's right arm swing action is preferable to the standard pivot-driven triple barrel swing action (4,2,3)?
Jeff.
Jeff watch the lee dietrick video and TT sitting on the chair demonstrating the right hand karate chop motion and it will become very clear ( left hand grip is important as well)
Is it superior? Well Ben Hogan did it so there is the answer right there. Now i can understand why TT was considered controversial but really the genius is there for all to see
Yoda - you wrote-: "The Pivot Delivers the Bent Right Elbow into Release.---
The Straightening Right Elbow Delivers the Left Arm and Club into Impact and Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position)."
You don't state whether the right elbow straightening is an active or a passive phenomenon.
As I have written many times in these pages, the Swinger's Right Arm is passive with regards to thrust, but active with regards to Extensor Action and sensing Lag Pressure. One thing is for sure: Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten, and the Left Arm and Club is driven by that action. Otherwise, nothing moves!
Originally Posted by Jeff
It is my understanding, from reading the TGM book, that in a swinger's action, the pivot delivers the entire power package assembly intact to the delivery position, and that release of the power package then happens due to the following phenomenon.
When the downswing pivot action subsides in the mid downswing, the left arm is catapulted off the chest (via the pivot-activated release of power accumulator #4) and therefore the left arm is moving towards the target with enough momentum to reach, and pass, the impact position. The right elbow then straightens passively in this scenario, with no need for any isotonic right triceps muscle action. The right triceps only has to have enough isometric tone to allow the right forearm to be driven forward so that it keeps up with the left arm, and simultaneously maintains extensor action throughout the entire downswing.
Does my description represent your understanding of a swinger's action?
Yes. And my sense is that you did not gain these insights strictly from reading the book and meditating on its contents.
Originally Posted by jeff
In the Tom Tomasello video tapes, he talks of the two forearms pulling the entire power package down to waist level while the body clears out of the way. He then states that the "right arm hits the ball", which seemingly implies that the right elbow straightening action is an active action. Therefore, Tom Tomasello is apparently describing a 4-barrel swing action activated by the right arm throw action - in the following sequence 4, 1,2,3. Power accumulator #4 is released by the "two forearms" pulling the entire power package downwards and thereby simultaneously propelling the left arm forward (while the pivot action simply allows the body to get out of the way), and then the right elbow straightens actively releasing power accumulator #1.
Is that how you understand the TT right arm swing action that DG recommends?
No comment.
Originally Posted by jeff
Why would DG believe that TT's right arm swing action is preferable to the standard pivot-driven triple barrel swing action (4,2,3)?
"Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten, and the Left Arm and Club is driven by that action. Otherwise, nothing moves!"
You seem to be implying that the straightening right arm actively drives the left arm and club in a swinger's action. I thought that the downswing pivot action catapults the left arm away from the torso when the downswing pivot action subsides and that the left arm continues to move targetwards because of the momentum gained from this catapulting force. I therefore presume that the right arm straightens passively because the right hand is conjoined to the left hand at the grip end of the club, and the right hand must move as fast as the left hand. In other words, I do not perceive that the straightening right arm is actively driving the left arm and club in a swinger's action, but merely "keeping pace" (= having enough active muscle contractile force to move the right hand at the same speed as the left hand).
Am I wrong?
You are right! A lot of my understanding of HK's writing comes from other sources - primarily from your archived posts. You have a great explicatory gift when it comes to making HK's obtuse prose more readily understandable.
I have viewed TT describing the right hand karate chop motion in that video. Do you interpret his description of that action differently to the description that I have already proffered with respect to my personal interpretation of TT's right arm throw action swing?
Are you implying that Ben Hogan used an active right arm throw action and/or an active right elbow straightening action in his full swing? If "yes" - could you please provide the "evidence" so that I can better understand why you believe those facts.
Hogan: The Magic of the Right Forearm
HK: The Magic of the Right Forearm
TT: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Blake: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Els: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Longitudinal or Radial acceleration it's All About the Right Forearm.
Are they all using the Right Forearm in the same way?
I don't think so.
What about hips?
The hips might be the single most important component of the golf swing and not all golfers automatically "use" them in the best way by using the Right Forearm to trigger the downswing as TT often says happens automatically I don't think it applies to all.
just my thoughts
Birdie Chance
What is the difference between the two gals throwing a ball?
It is all about the pivot…(or the dress code)
__________________
If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
I have viewed TT describing the right hand karate chop motion in that video. Do you interpret his description of that action differently to the description that I have already proffered with respect to my personal interpretation of TT's right arm throw action swing?
Are you implying that Ben Hogan used an active right arm throw action and/or an active right elbow straightening action in his full swing? If "yes" - could you please provide the "evidence" so that I can better understand why you believe those facts.
Jeff.
In my opinion Jeff the action that TT is demonstrating is a wrist/hand throw with the right hand being dominant. Contrary to what you are stating the the right elbow is not part of the deal and when done properly will actually put the right elbow in a more pitch condition and the true magic of the right forearm will happen.
Evidence lets see what did Hogan say "i wish i had 3 right hands" and any video or photo will never tell you what really happens
"Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten, and the Left Arm and Club is driven by that action. Otherwise, nothing moves!"
Let me rephrase a bit and see if it helps:
"Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten. That motion permits the [Swinger's] Left Arm and Club to continue its centrifugally-driven journey into Impact. Otherwise, nothing moves!"
I like this second versio0n better because it differentiates action (actively doing work) from motion (passively permitting other things to occur).
For further clarification of Right Elbow participation Through the Ball (7-24), study 6-A-1 (the straightening Right Arm changing the shape of the Power Package Triangle); 7-20 (the lengthening Right Arm Triggering the Release); and 6-B-3-0 (Hand Motion "'Roll Power Control'" of the Right Elbow and "true Clubhead Overtaking Control").
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