Hah. Nice post. Although I dont know what you mean by "resisting CF". I agree with you Hogans still slightly bent right arm in that picture suggests to me that he was not "actively" extending it there. But the Right Arm must extend all the same, no?
As to whether I see Hogan's clubhead moving left in that photo........... yes, but mainly I see I guy staying on the Elbow Plane with an Angled Hinge Action and its associated travel. The flatter more horizontal the Plane Angle the more Left there will be post Low Point........and the more Right pre Low Point, eh? Less Down more Out in our speak. So ya, I see the clubhead, the clubshaft, the Handle ............... I know you do too. Ever build a plane board, Okie? Id love to climb into one of those things. Homer said it would be a revelation to anyone who did.
I thought gmbtempe was maybe alluding to "swinging left". I have no problem with that stuff, not that I know that much about it. But like "hitting up" I believe it is ideally done in an on plane manner. Dont force things off plane, or disrupt the clubheads orbit. Change the plane angle, OK. Change the plane angle shifts OK. Artificial axis tilt , exaggerated lean back if you must, Ok. Just dont bend the plane. Adjust the machine at address.
Simply put to Hit Up on a driver , tee it appropriately in front of Low Point and slightly Inside the Plane Line and then put a good swing on it. Meaning, hit down and out, the club will come Up and In on its own.
Nah I never did get spousal say-so to build me one of dem plane things! I did build a low bench out of PVC. As for resisting CF, I do not know what that is either You are right in that the arm must straighten at some point. That point is a maker or a breaker. I "delay" the straightening of my right elbow by making sure that my right shoulder stays on the face of the plane as long as is possible. I guess that would be resisting CF? Shoulder acceleration first. Eventually CF is allowed to do its thang. For years people have tried to create mega-accumulator lag with the angle between the left arm and club (#2Acc.) focusing on keeping the angle etc. Homer taught me (through the magnificent little yella book that is) that you can control both the 2 & 3Acc (whose existence I was oblivious to!)with the action of the right elbow. 1F is it? Right arm participation active or passive is the tie that binds...for me...at this time...barring unforseen circumstances...or a sudden drop in barometeric pressure...or the state of my digestion...or the next time a flat bellied teen hits it 50 yards past me!
I had someone ask me if this cross line thrust was a cross line stroke. The answer is no, as Okie alluded to above. To move down plane is to move Out assuming an Inclined plane. Your divot should still point straight at the hole but with a little arc to it that is hardly noticeable unless you turn it over and look at the underside. The flatter the plane the more arc.
Here is a mental experiment. Imagine an Inclined Plane from a down the line view. Hogans sheet of glass or similar. Now draw a line on this plane from the top corner nearest you diagonally to the opposite bottom corner. Now put your eye to this line and scope it like a rifle. It points down and out towards the plane line. Move your eye to a birds eye , overhead perspective. The line is not parallel to the Target Line but points to the right of it. "Out to right field" so to speak though the Clubhead doesnt not cross to the other side of the Plane Line.
The paths of the clubhead/Hands are not perfectly straight but these observations hold in the real world in that Thrust is always straight line by definition. So the Thrust is cross line towards the plane line. Down and Out. Steering would be a redirection of Thrust towards the target, which seems logical at first, but lacks both direction and power. (Note not just direction!)
To see the effects of Plane Angle on the relative amounts of Down vs Out move your imaginary plane to more extreme angles. Upright planes having far more Down than Out. Flatter planes, like Hogans Elbow Plane having more Out and less Down. (And more In than Up post Low Point for Hand Path considerations).
And now in a further attempt to digress deeper into the abyss of "Hogan: swinging left yes , but TGM geometry compliant" controversy:
Given that the Pivot (Shoulder Turn) and or Right Arm Thrust provide the Out of Three Dimensional Impact. The Left Wrist uncocking (#2 Accumulator Angle) and Axis Tilt provide the Down. See 2-N-1.
You can, Im thinking, extrapolate that Hogan traveling the flatest usable Plane, the Elbow Plane....... probably:
-felt very rotational through the shot with a strong feel at the #4 pressure point.
-felt a goodly amount of #3 Accum roll power.
-had a sense for the delayed overtaking of the hands by the clubhead given the Travel associated with any Angled Hinge Action employment.
-noticed visually the clubhead and hands moving more In than Up post low point.
-had a strong sense of thrusting Out, towards the inside aft of the ball (especially for balls placed back of low point). The Arc of Approach.
-felt this cross line thrust at the #1 and #2 Pressure Points (direct drive) with the #3 passively sensing the lag pressure. See, hear Hogan on his #3 pp feel in the Coleman tapes. Its quite interesting.
As an aside, while Hogan most likely had a strong sense of hitting Out, I dont think he would have had any perception of using Homers Angle of Approach procedure. He didnt use it, couldnt use it given that amount of Turning through the shot! His hard turning Left Shoulder would pull the hands along the ARc of Approach. You can not Pivot hard and use the Angle of Approach actually, though a strong sense of Out on the flatter planes may suggest otherwise. That would be a feel but not a Delivery Line real. You cant use the Angle of Approach procedure while traveling the Elbow Plane either. That would be another incompatible choice of components.
Hah. Nice post. Although I dont know what you mean by "resisting CF". I agree with you Hogans still slightly bent right arm in that picture suggests to me that he was not "actively" extending it there. But the Right Arm must extend all the same, no?
As to whether I see Hogan's clubhead moving left in that photo........... yes, but mainly I see I guy staying on the Elbow Plane with an Angled Hinge Action and its associated travel. The flatter more horizontal the Plane Angle the more Left there will be post Low Point........and the more Right pre Low Point, eh? Less Down more Out in our speak. So ya, I see the clubhead, the clubshaft, the Handle ............... I know you do too. Ever build a plane board, Okie? Id love to climb into one of those things. Homer said it would be a revelation to anyone who did.
I thought gmbtempe was maybe alluding to "swinging left". I have no problem with that stuff, not that I know that much about it. But like "hitting up" I believe it is ideally done in an on plane manner. Dont force things off plane, or disrupt the clubheads orbit. Change the plane angle, OK. Change the plane angle shifts OK. Artificial axis tilt , exaggerated lean back if you must, Ok. Just dont bend the plane. Adjust the machine at address.
Simply put to Hit Up on a driver , tee it appropriately in front of Low Point and slightly Inside the Plane Line and then put a good swing on it. Meaning, hit down and out, the club will come Up and In on its own.
So if I understand it correctly, the main important thing is to keep the path on a straight plane line, and that means I'll be hitting the forwarded tee on the way up and in, while still having some thrust past low point.
But then maybe, the plane line should be a little more towards the right, so that when the clubface is going up and back in, it will be more square to the target than slightly closed to the target. What do you think?
Btw, I've heard that hitting down with the driver is safer, but I've also read that you can lose about 30 yards of distance.
Good idea, though; I should practice hitting down with the driver, so I have more of a safety shot. Staying in the fairway beats a longer drive into the trees.
I've been on Trackman twice in my life and one showed me hitting upward by 1-2* and then another showed me downward by about -1*. It's not something I think about, just move the ball position and take the stroke you normally would with a driver. Now, if I was in a long drive competition then I would really focus on hitting up, but I think in general if you want to hit up, just move the ball position and rotate the plane line a little to the right. I think you can have a ton of right arm and still hit up on the driver. Take a look at Dustin Johnson's swing:
Btw, I've heard that hitting down with the driver is safer, but I've also read that you can lose about 30 yards of distance.
I don't quite agree with that notion. If you hit up on the driver you have to worry about wind since you're launching higher and if you're long enough, many fairways tend to bottleneck. But you can still hit it pretty straight and hit up on the driver. The LPGA tour average is +3* with the driver and I'm assuming that there are some LPGA golfers that are extremely accurate with the driver.
You can gain, easily, 30 yards by hitting up on the driver. I believe JB Holmes and Tiger have the same swing speed, but the difference in Holmes being longer is he hits about 3* up with the driver while Tiger hits about 3* down.
But, you gotta find what you're comfortable and most consistent with, IMO. I think if golfers force themselves into hitting down or up and they can't quite do it, it can lead to some trouble.
So you are saying we should hit down on it then? I think if you need a few yards play it up, if you need to hit the fairway put some spin on it. The draw back here I think is that the sole of modern drivers encourages more of a sweeping action. Agree?
You are right in that the arm must straighten at some point. That point is a maker or a breaker. I "delay" the straightening of my right elbow by making sure that my right shoulder stays on the face of the plane as long as is possible. I guess that would be resisting CF? Shoulder acceleration first. Eventually CF is allowed to do its thang. For years people have tried to create mega-accumulator lag with the angle between the left arm and club (#2Acc.) focusing on keeping the angle etc. Homer taught me (through the magnificent little yella book that is) that you can control both the 2 & 3Acc (whose existence I was oblivious to!)with the action of the right elbow. 1F is it? Right arm participation active or passive is the tie that binds...for me...at this time...barring unforseen circumstances...or a sudden drop in barometeric pressure...or the state of my digestion...or the next time a flat bellied teen hits it 50 yards past me!
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