Having watched this debate for years now, and honestly trying not to get too caught up in it, would you agree that perhaps your argument is in many ways simply one of the different perspectives of "actions" vs "motions"?
Year after Year, someone shouts- 'You are pivot control Hands" without understanding the reason for a pivot. As long as the hips do not control the Hands and arms along the delivery path, as long as the Hips do not move the club after it is loaded and ready to whirl or be driven- the hands are in control.
In fact Homer said that a shoulder take-away is pivot control. The turning hips and shoulders move the club- not the Hands. Like wise on the downstroke, dropping the hands into the slot and whirling the arms the way Standard Hip action describes might be Pivot control. Standard Hip Action might be a pivot control component. Homer thought little of Standard and only listed it because it was the way golf was played fror 200 years.
But understanding might be tough. TT, at one time, had student cross out 'Hands control Pivot' in the book saying it was easier to monitor the pivot, with the same basic stroke pattern. So if even an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time - confusion might be the norm. Thank Goodness for Yoda shedding light and making Homer's easier to understand.
No way can anyone tell me that my pivot overrides my Hands task.
Year after Year, someone shouts- 'You are pivot control Hands" without understanding the reason for a pivot. As long as the hips do not control the Hands and arms along the delivery path, as long as the Hips do not move the club after it is loaded and ready to whirl or be driven- the hands are in control.
In fact Homer said that a shoulder take-away is pivot control. The turning hips and shoulders move the club- not the Hands. Like wise on the downstroke, dropping the hands into the slot and whirling the arms the way Standard Hip action describes might be Pivot control. Standard Hip Action might be a pivot control component. Homer thought little of Standard and only listed it because it was the way golf was played fror 200 years.
But understanding might be tough. TT, at one time, had student cross out 'Hands control Pivot' in the book saying it was easier to monitor the pivot, with the same basic stroke pattern. So if even an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time - confusion might be the norm. Thank Goodness for Yoda shedding light and making Homer's easier to understand.
No way can anyone tell me that my pivot overrides my Hands task.
Hmmmmmm.....I must be confused....the only difference between 10-15-A and 10-15-B is the backstroke.
The interesting thing about your comment regarding the issue with the student and pivot controlled hands.....it appears the student didn't give you all of the information to why Tommy would have made such a suggestion. I know exactly why....it's in the book and I have Tomasello discussing it on cassette tape. I think if you knew the true reason you would eat your words regarding the comment, "an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time"...standard hip, delayed hip, pivot controlled hands, hands controlled pivot.....Tommy's kept his hands on the straight line delivery path. BOTTOM LINE. That means only one thing, his mind were in his hands (that's the basis for hand controlled pivot). They had to be or a true standard hip action would generate an angled delivery path. My guess is the student your referencing had problems keeping his/her arms on plane.
Without Tommy here to defend his position....this is all pot shots. I'm sure Homer and Tommy are looking down at this in disgust.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-30-2007 at 10:56 PM.
I'm sure Homer and Tommy are looking down at this in disgust.
DG
You are sure? Evidence?
__________________
"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
During my three day school, Tomasello made references to Homer looking down. While teaching me the magic of the right forearm.....Tommy made the comment, I know Homer's looking down and saying, yes, it can be that easy.
I figure if Homer was looking down in 1993, I'm pretty sure they're both looking down now in between golf shots and getting a kick out of all this non-sense surrounding the little yellow book.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-30-2007 at 10:57 PM.
BTW, HULA HULA is a Component 14 concept.....not a component 15 concept. See 7-14. I see no issue with the Hula Hula and what Tomasello said about there being no seperation between the hips and shoulders....as 7-14 says....independent but coordinated.
Debating TGM is starting to feel good again.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-31-2007 at 12:08 AM.
During my three day school, Tomasello made references to Homer looking down. While teaching me the magic of the right forearm.....Tommy made the comment, I know Homer's looking down and saying, yes, it can be that easy.
I figure if Homer was looking down in 1993, I'm pretty they're both looking down now in between golf shots and getting a kick out of all this non-sense surounding the little yellow book.
DG
Pretty creepy bringing up TT and HK that way. Dude- tell a pill.
Here are a few things Homer wrote about the Pivot, Lag and stroke sequence. It differs from some beliefs posted above by others- I guess I just misinterpret again.
8. Hip Slide starts the down swing. (from a stroke sequence list)
Keep your body ahead of your hands and your hands ahead of the club. (that is one leading the other the right order.)
Educated Hands are those that can feel the resistance of motion --
CLUBHEAD lag. (that happens when fully loaded- Pivot and Accumulator Lag)
5. Improve one step at a time, start with the pivot. (that important, it is , yes)
Hula Hula - This flexibility allows the right forearm to remain on
plane and keeps the shoulder motion and hip motion independent. Keep these (2) separate. (not what DG reports and see SEC- it allows the right forearm magic to remain on plane- that is what the Man said- no me)
A sharp Backstroke Turn, a Downstroke Hip Slide only, (before the Arm Motion begins) encourages "On Plane" Pivot alignments.
So its - Turn, Slide, Swing. (lets see- a RFT, then a DS Hip Slide BEFORE Arm Motion begins to encourage ON PLANE Pivot alignments- Geez that Homer was a rebel. DG says no way. )
Careful:
Aiming Point - At the Top of the Backstroke - even at the End -
mentally construct a line from the Hands to the Aiming Point. Let a
careful Downstroke Pivot move the Hands precisely along this line
they will "feel" as though they remain at the top of the Stroke. Don't question that Feel - just sustain (monitor) it, all ready for Release at the preselected Release Point. Drive the Hands (Clubhead Feel) "down the line" until both arms are straight, NO QUITTING! This procedure merely utilizes a long used method for drawing freehand straight lines between two points. Using the Clubshaft as the pencil is an effective equivalent.
(Holy Fudge- Downstroke Pivot moves the Hands- WTF is Homer doing here. Okay it is a well trained and fairly careful Downstroke Pivot but move the Hands?? And they will ‘feel’ like they remained at the top- question not- just sustain and monitor the “it” and get ready for release and then drive the Hands in a down the line until both are straight? Homer, what are you saying? That the Hands are clamps before release?)
Pretty creepy bringing up TT and HK that way. Dude- tell a pill.
Here are a few things Homer wrote about the Pivot, Lag and stroke sequence. It differs from some beliefs posted above by others- I guess I just misinterpret again.
8. Hip Slide starts the down swing. (from a stroke sequence list)
Keep your body ahead of your hands and your hands ahead of the club. (that is one leading the other the right order.)
Educated Hands are those that can feel the resistance of motion --
CLUBHEAD lag. (that happens when fully loaded- Pivot and Accumulator Lag)
5. Improve one step at a time, start with the pivot. (that important, it is , yes)
Hula Hula - This flexibility allows the right forearm to remain on
plane and keeps the shoulder motion and hip motion independent. Keep these (2) separate. (not what DG reports and see SEC- it allows the right forearm magic to remain on plane- that is what the Man said- no me)
A sharp Backstroke Turn, a Downstroke Hip Slide only, (before the Arm Motion begins) encourages "On Plane" Pivot alignments.
So its - Turn, Slide, Swing. (lets see- a RFT, then a DS Hip Slide BEFORE Arm Motion begins to encourage ON PLANE Pivot alignments- Geez that Homer was a rebel. DG says no way. )
Careful:
Aiming Point - At the Top of the Backstroke - even at the End -
mentally construct a line from the Hands to the Aiming Point. Let a
careful Downstroke Pivot move the Hands precisely along this line
they will "feel" as though they remain at the top of the Stroke. Don't question that Feel - just sustain (monitor) it, all ready for Release at the preselected Release Point. Drive the Hands (Clubhead Feel) "down the line" until both arms are straight, NO QUITTING! This procedure merely utilizes a long used method for drawing freehand straight lines between two points. Using the Clubshaft as the pencil is an effective equivalent.
(Holy Fudge- Downstroke Pivot moves the Hands- WTF is Homer doing here. Okay it is a well trained and fairly careful Downstroke Pivot but move the Hands?? And they will ‘feel’ like they remained at the top- question not- just sustain and monitor the “it” and get ready for release and then drive the Hands in a down the line until both are straight? Homer, what are you saying? That the Hands are clamps before release?)
But Homer is all wrong, right?
You use Homer notes....I'll use the 7th edition. One big question, why don't those comments appear in the 7th edition. Geezzzz, I wonder why? Could they really be Homer's notes? In a pure sense of course....
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-30-2007 at 11:38 PM.
First let me say that I’m out of your Magic Kingdom. It was very self-centered to say Homer and Tom would be so disgusted at this. What I cheap shot taken in VAIN. Lynn- remember him- said that Homer loved questions. Question are earthquakes to you, Dg.
Second- those notes came from audio tapes of Master Classes taught by Homer. This is what Homer taught to his students. The 7th Edition- in my opinion - was not written entirely by Homer Kelley. Joe Daniels should have put his name on the book with Kelley’s.
I’m told 7-3 removed the word Magic- if the edition is so dear- drop the term.
One day you will might stop hiding behind Tom Tomesello.
Hybrid Mode
