Having watched this debate for years now, and honestly trying not to get too caught up in it, would you agree that perhaps your argument is in many ways simply one of the different perspectives of "actions" vs "motions"?
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Overall, I can't buy into terminology that states "hips lead the down swing."
This is because "hips = part of the pivot" and I cannot say "part of the pivot leads (leads meaning "in charge of") the downswing." Hips accomplish work and have motion in the downswing but I can't buy into a leading role. Pros have probably played wonderful golf with the hips in the lead, but hips in the lead, to me, is not the hands controlled pivot of The Golfing Machine. Thanks for the work on the replies. I've learned a lot.
I'm done.
Lead means to be ahead of, not to pilot or guide. Hips move ahead of the shoulders. PLAIN AND SIMPLY. And since the Hands designed and are always monitoring- the three esstenials are intact. No fkn way does any movement of the pivot relocates the hands. In fact they assure staying ON Plane since they do not have to re-locate themselves veering off and back on. That is what the Pivot is trained for. Easy access to the ball.
I leave you with this. Everything I wrote is from Homer. Everything I learned about the G.O.L.F. stroke came from Homer's Book and explainations and instruction from Yoda. According to you- they both teach pivot control. Glad you debunked the myth.
Lead means to be ahead of, not to pilot or guide. Hips move ahead of the shoulders. PLAIN AND SIMPLY. And since the Hands designed and are always monitoring- the three esstenials are intact. No fkn way does any movement of the pivot relocates the hands. In fact they assure staying ON Plane since they do not have to re-locate themselves veering off and back on. That is what the Pivot is trained for. Easy access to the ball.
I leave you with this. Everything I wrote is from Homer. Everything I learned about the G.O.L.F. stroke came from Homer's Book and explainations and instruction from Yoda. According to you- they both teach pivot control. Glad you debunked the myth.
And everything that Tomasello taught comes straight from TGM....and in no hidden manner. For starters, 4-D-1 the drill with the clubshaft against the left forearm...have seen Tommy demonstrate it multiple times on video. I have yet to see another AI do that drill. How about the flying wedge drill.....or how about extensor action drill (have seen Chuck do that drill....not like Tomasello!@#$%^&*)
Tomasello quotes on hips and shoulders:
-There is no "tension" and or "seperation" of the hips and shoulders.
-The hips do not generate power they only maintain velocity.....
As Tommy said, just because you have read the bible doesn't mean you're going to heaven.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-30-2007 at 11:14 PM.
Having watched this debate for years now, and honestly trying not to get too caught up in it, would you agree that perhaps your argument is in many ways simply one of the different perspectives of "actions" vs "motions"?
Year after Year, someone shouts- 'You are pivot control Hands" without understanding the reason for a pivot. As long as the hips do not control the Hands and arms along the delivery path, as long as the Hips do not move the club after it is loaded and ready to whirl or be driven- the hands are in control.
In fact Homer said that a shoulder take-away is pivot control. The turning hips and shoulders move the club- not the Hands. Like wise on the downstroke, dropping the hands into the slot and whirling the arms the way Standard Hip action describes might be Pivot control. Standard Hip Action might be a pivot control component. Homer thought little of Standard and only listed it because it was the way golf was played fror 200 years.
But understanding might be tough. TT, at one time, had student cross out 'Hands control Pivot' in the book saying it was easier to monitor the pivot, with the same basic stroke pattern. So if even an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time - confusion might be the norm. Thank Goodness for Yoda shedding light and making Homer's easier to understand.
No way can anyone tell me that my pivot overrides my Hands task.
And everything that Tomasello taught comes straight from TGM....and in no hidden manner. For starters, 4-D-1 the drill with the clubshaft against the left forearm...have seen Tommy demonstrate it multiple times on video. I have yet to see another AI do that drill.
Tomasello quotes on hips and shoulders:
-There is no "tension" and or "seperation" of the hips and shoulders.
-The hips do not generate power they only maintain velocity.....
Just you know the book does not mean your interpreting it correctly.
As Tommy said, just because you have read the bible doesn't mean you're going to heaven.
DG
I did try to move these posts to another thread but the questions always came back here. I am not disputing TT.
And I never mention power generating from the hips. The hips do not generate power- they are part of the pivot. And Yes, they is a seperation of the Hips and Shoulders. Hula Hula- Delayed Hip Action. If you don't your pivot spacing is all wrong.
Personally- I am not an AI, but I do know a thing or two. As I said, my comments were not knocking that stroke pattern of Tom's like you think but explaining what Hands control Pivot is.
Tell Lynn that his interpreation is all wrong. I'd stay with Yoda and Lynn then YOU and Tom.
I will not enter your Magic kingdom of the right Forearm again. Just let people know that your explainations do not cover all stroke patterns- deal?
Year after Year, someone shouts- 'You are pivot control Hands" without understanding the reason for a pivot. As long as the hips do not control the Hands and arms along the delivery path, as long as the Hips do not move the club after it is loaded and ready to whirl or be driven- the hands are in control.
In fact Homer said that a shoulder take-away is pivot control. The turning hips and shoulders move the club- not the Hands. Like wise on the downstroke, dropping the hands into the slot and whirling the arms the way Standard Hip action describes might be Pivot control. Standard Hip Action might be a pivot control component. Homer thought little of Standard and only listed it because it was the way golf was played fror 200 years.
But understanding might be tough. TT, at one time, had student cross out 'Hands control Pivot' in the book saying it was easier to monitor the pivot, with the same basic stroke pattern. So if even an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time - confusion might be the norm. Thank Goodness for Yoda shedding light and making Homer's easier to understand.
No way can anyone tell me that my pivot overrides my Hands task.
Hmmmmmm.....I must be confused....the only difference between 10-15-A and 10-15-B is the backstroke.
The interesting thing about your comment regarding the issue with the student and pivot controlled hands.....it appears the student didn't give you all of the information to why Tommy would have made such a suggestion. I know exactly why....it's in the book and I have Tomasello discussing it on cassette tape. I think if you knew the true reason you would eat your words regarding the comment, "an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time"...standard hip, delayed hip, pivot controlled hands, hands controlled pivot.....Tommy's kept his hands on the straight line delivery path. BOTTOM LINE. That means only one thing, his mind were in his hands (that's the basis for hand controlled pivot). They had to be or a true standard hip action would generate an angled delivery path. My guess is the student your referencing had problems keeping his/her arms on plane.
Without Tommy here to defend his position....this is all pot shots. I'm sure Homer and Tommy are looking down at this in disgust.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-30-2007 at 10:56 PM.
I'm sure Homer and Tommy are looking down at this in disgust.
DG
You are sure? Evidence?
__________________
"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
During my three day school, Tomasello made references to Homer looking down. While teaching me the magic of the right forearm.....Tommy made the comment, I know Homer's looking down and saying, yes, it can be that easy.
I figure if Homer was looking down in 1993, I'm pretty sure they're both looking down now in between golf shots and getting a kick out of all this non-sense surrounding the little yellow book.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-30-2007 at 10:57 PM.
BTW, HULA HULA is a Component 14 concept.....not a component 15 concept. See 7-14. I see no issue with the Hula Hula and what Tomasello said about there being no seperation between the hips and shoulders....as 7-14 says....independent but coordinated.
Debating TGM is starting to feel good again.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-31-2007 at 12:08 AM.
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