Ben Hogan's 24 Basic Components

[MizunoJoe]

Maybe that is just what I feel..but yeah, it is actually, if I come to think of it, really just going along for the ride...the ride or main engine being the L shoulder/PA4/pivot...yeah, Inert...Lifeless...

But MJ, my R shoulder is never firing...if it does, I sure never felt or intended it...

Yeah, I feel my L wrist is firing, but I feel or "think" more about my L Elbow...very important to me as it helps my L arm behave "properly"... Does this L Elbow move of mine still qualifies my L arm as Inert?

I can only conclude that you're pulling with your left shoulder, which will drag the right shoulder and RFW. This not only sacrifices power, but can mess up impact alignments. You should drive the right shoulder down plane, propelling PP#3 through impact. There's a good reason why TGM hardly makes mention of the left shoulder.

I hope by firing the left wrist, you mean rolling it, which is the only legitimate left wrist move you can make.

I'm also confused by your contradictory statements that your left arm is inert, and that you also make a "L Elbow move". If it's the move that T Bertrand claims that Hogan made, I recommend not doing it. Any left elbow move would make the left arm active, not inert.

In summary, I think, like a lot of Hogan followers, you're probably trying to execute the golf stroke like a left-handed, top-spin tennis stroke. And that's a road to somewhere you don't want to go.

[brianid]

I can only conclude that you're pulling with your left shoulder, which will drag the right shoulder and RFW. This not only sacrifices power, but can mess up impact alignments. You should drive the right shoulder down plane, propelling PP#3 through impact. There's a good reason why TGM hardly makes mention of the left shoulder.

I hope by firing the left wrist, you mean rolling it, which is the only legitimate left wrist move you can make.

I'm also confused by your contradictory statements that your left arm is inert, and that you also make a "L Elbow move". If it's the move that T Bertrand claims that Hogan made, I recommend not doing it. Any left elbow move would make the left arm active, not inert.

In summary, I think, like a lot of Hogan followers, you're probably trying to execute the golf stroke like a left-handed, top-spin tennis stroke. And that's a road to somewhere you don't want to go.

Even for a Swinger, the L arm is inert? Why? What is TGM's rationale for this?

Re L elbow turn, why do you not recommend that? The way I see it now, it is the same as turning the L wrist, just with more consistency. And, it is sorta like just an insurance that the L forearm will behave properly at Impact and FollowThru---L elbow bending but not retracting backwards laterally to the side and remaining in front of the torso (not chicken winging), with the L forearm/wrist still being able to turn to the fullest/efficiently and L forearm going upwards. So input power is being transferred efficiently to the L wrist and to the clubhead.

And, for a Swinger who is using #4 anyway, why would turning the L elbow make the L arm exert (not inert)? The way I see it now, the L arm being Exert (sorry, easier to type...lol) will only be unwanted IF the Swinger slows down or doesn't use #4 and then rely on Exerting his L arm to Swing the club. But this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying its #4 that is the MAIN pulling power, with #3 just being made sure to perform to transfer that power to the clubhead. The L elbow turn is just for that---Transfer of Power. That's why #3 it is called Transfer Power, correct? The L elbow turn ENSURES that...no? So why not help that Transferring of Power?

[whip]

Even for a Swinger, the L arm is inert? Why? What is TGM's rationale for this?

Re L elbow turn, why do you not recommend that? The way I see it now, it is the same as turning the L wrist, just with more consistency. And, it is sorta like just an insurance that the L forearm will behave properly at Impact and FollowThru---L elbow bending but not retracting backwards laterally to the side and remaining in front of the torso (not chicken winging), with the L forearm/wrist still being able to turn to the fullest/efficiently and L forearm going upwards. So input power is being transferred efficiently to the L wrist and to the clubhead.

And, for a Swinger who is using #4 anyway, why would turning the L elbow make the L arm exert (not inert)? The way I see it now, the L arm being Exert (sorry, easier to type...lol) will only be unwanted IF the Swinger slows down or doesn't use #4 and then rely on Exerting his L arm to Swing the club. But this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying its #4 that is the MAIN pulling power, with #3 just being made sure to perform to transfer that power to the clubhead. The L elbow turn is just for that---Transfer of Power. That's why #3 it is called Transfer Power, correct? The L elbow turn ENSURES that...no? So why not help that Transferring of Power?

SWINGER OR HITTER the left arm is INERT meaning it is simply a length to be maintained, it is the same as if you replaced your left arm with a rope, IT HAS NO MUSCULAR CONTRIBUTION, it's only contribution is it's maintained natural length to provide structure and radius to the swing. the left elbow should not bend until the FINISH not the follow through, the right arm should never be straight until the end of the FOLLOW THROUGH. the arm movement you're describing sounds as if you are not clearing the left hip, THE LEFT HIP MUST CLEAR OUT to allow both arms to get to both arms straight while making room for a full roll on plane without any strange lifting or bending of the left arm as you are describing.

ALL swingers are using #4 IT IS THE MASTER ACCUMULATOR, IT must be released first it provides the main power source of the gear train. I have no idea what you mean by turning the left elbow makes it 'exert'....

Do not concern yourself with left elbow turning, focus more on the right elbow and the left hip and left wrist for proper swivel and hinge.

turning the left elbow from the top will not "help" the #3 accumulator, the only way to help or rather ensure that you get the transfer of the #3 accumulator power is to uncock the left wrist on plane and CLEAR the left hip, that is GET OUT OF THE WAY clear that left hip!

[Etzwane]

Not sure you're talking about the same move: when you say "elbow turn" I see (and it looks like MizunoJoe too) a movement of the entire arm from the shoulder. That could intefere with the pressure on #4. #3 release is pronation/supination, a movement of the forearm ("wrist movement" in TGM terms).

[MizunoJoe]

Not sure you're talking about the same move: when you say "elbow turn" I see (and it looks like MizunoJoe too) a movement of the entire arm from the shoulder. That could intefere with the pressure on #4. #3 release is pronation/supination, a movement of the forearm ("wrist movement" in TGM terms).

No, #3 release(Throwout) is the LFW being driven off-plane by the driving right shoulder in order to deliver the sweetspot to the ball.

[whip]

No, #3 release(Throwout) is the LFW being driven off-plane by the driving right shoulder in order to deliver the sweetspot to the ball.

What?? Throwout is defined by centrifugal force acting on the clubhead which does effect the roll but more aptly it is the number two accumulator being thrownout. The #4 acc is what is driven out by the right shoulder via the instant acceleration hip action. Etzwayne got it right why would the right shoulder drive the clubhead OFFplane to deliver the sweetspot you don't have to be OFFplane to hit the ball not sure where u came up with that.

[MizunoJoe]

What?? Throwout is defined by centrifugal force acting on the clubhead which does effect the roll but more aptly it is the number two accumulator being thrownout. The #4 acc is what is driven out by the right shoulder via the instant acceleration hip action. Etzwayne got it right why would the right shoulder drive the clubhead OFFplane to deliver the sweetspot you don't have to be OFFplane to hit the ball not sure where u came up with that.

Good grief!

[brianid]

Not sure you're talking about the same move: when you say "elbow turn" I see (and it looks like MizunoJoe too) a movement of the entire arm from the shoulder. That could intefere with the pressure on #4. #3 release is pronation/supination, a movement of the forearm ("wrist movement" in TGM terms).

Yeah, the L elbow turn is a CCW movement of the whole upper arm from shoulder to elbow.

But actually, it helps add pressure to #4. When I turn my L elbow (whole upper arm bone actually), my L triceps "presses" into the side of my chest/torso/armpit. So it doesn't interfere with #4, in fact it helps a lot. I actually don't feel PP#4 much when I don't turn the L elbow.

Re #3 release as supination..movement of the forearm/wrist movement...moving the upper arm actually will move the elbow, which in turn moves the forearm, which in turn the wrist...it is just like painting but you are holding the paintbrush at the opposite end...turning the forearm or wrist itself is like holding the paintbrush near the brush...

So, let's ask a painter which one is better?...

[MizunoJoe]

Yeah, the L elbow turn is a CCW movement of the whole upper arm from shoulder to elbow.

But actually, it helps add pressure to #4. When I turn my L elbow (whole upper arm bone actually), my L triceps "presses" into the side of my chest/torso/armpit. So it doesn't interfere with #4, in fact it helps a lot. I actually don't feel PP#4 much when I don't turn the L elbow.

Re #3 release as supination..movement of the forearm/wrist movement...moving the upper arm actually will move the elbow, which in turn moves the forearm, which in turn the wrist...it is just like painting but you are holding the paintbrush at the opposite end...turning the forearm or wrist itself is like holding the paintbrush near the brush...

So, let's ask a painter which one is better?...

What's better is to actually understand release of #3, and neither one of those is correct. The driving right shoulder moves the LFW off plane and the RFW on plane at Impact. The left shoulder, and entire left arm, including the elbow, should be inert. The left wrist can full roll(requires manipulation), half roll(happens naturally - no manipulation required), or unrolled(requires manipulation) , but that's Hinge Action, not #3 release.

[brianid]

What's better is to actually understand release of #3, and neither one of those is correct. The driving right shoulder moves the LFW off plane and the RFW on plane at Impact. The left shoulder, and entire left arm, including the elbow, should be inert. The left wrist can full roll(requires manipulation), half roll(happens naturally - no manipulation required), or unrolled(requires manipulation) , but that's Hinge Action, not #3 release.

Hmmm...I see...so what's the #3 Release? So my intentional roll is actually just manipulation resulting to Full Roll. How do you Release #3 in TGM then? The Throw Out? Just CF?