I seriously doubt you even know what a degree of freedom is.
You're a phoney... a fake... a poser.
In fact its obvious you don't know squat about mechanics, bio or otherwise.
So you've purchased a license to dispense BS at $50 a pop. BIG DEAL
The real problem is you're clueless.
Originally Posted by biomechanic
No I dropped out of school and I live on the street.
I think you need to read 2-m-1 and 2-e so you understand conservation of momentum in golf.
Wow the paper is only three years old , interesting present me with data using opti sensors and using vicon system for starters.
they are only measuring certain segments,they are using a cheap 6 dof system which is limited to data.
how about providing data which they are using the full body suit you wear which has opti sensors and every body part and every muscle and both hands as well.
If your placing your beliefs on this one paper whom's technology limits them to measuring data don't waste my time.
It's funny you a man of science base, interesting I wondering if you can read,
I think you need to re read the paper to understand what it is they are studying exactly, I don't believe they are talking about ball compression or how hard they are driving the right arm home to compress the ball, I don't see they are talking about the angles of the right hand at all. hmmm
Now I'm starting to question how much you do know about science and what you know about golf,
Golf is easy to answer very little. have you ever study T.G.M, indicate you haven't.
don't waste my time with data that isn't using the best technology ,
that data was almost as good as K-vest.
clothes move in motion so the sensors would have moved, I bet you haven't seen the research papers they did on this.
I love their little quote stating they used snug clothing.
Most researchers would have thrown this paper over their shoulder once they read this.
good to see you know your a man of science based and not technology based as well. This way we can accept the fact that you based you belief on science and entrusted these guys were using state of the art technology.
don't be to upset. I understand your a man of science. And your not up to speed with technology and measuring systems, Our understand the difference between all the 6 dof systems out there.
In essence I agree with Mike O (jsut not about COAM),
Forum participation should be a generally pleasant mutually beneficial, mutually edifying experience. The Golden Rule should always apply (and I am not referring to the: He with the gold (forum owner) RULES interpretation of that either).
Frankly I'm not interest in "debating" anything with anyone. I have my opinions formed from the basis of my experiences (scholastic and otherwise) and I'm willing to share to those provided they're not answered by insults. Discussion... yes. Pointing out errors in my logic... yes absolutely but ad homenin insults completely devoid of substance NO WAY.
I have some thoughts on the matter of a golfers hip action but honestly... I ask you what is the point sharing them? When I find myself dreading the thought of checking responses to a forum post I've made, its probably time to move on.
kind regards all...
Originally Posted by O.B.Left
Ya, know what you mean Mike. But I dont want these guys to stop outright.
Bio, NM. Why dont you debate a single aspect of the swing that relates to the topic at hand. Something that we golf practitioners would find of practical interest.
I am interested in the hips for instance. My first TGM based instructor (not an AI I should mention) suggested that it isnt how fast you spin your hips but rather how quickly you stop them that adds to the clubhead's speed.
Personally I dont subscribe to either extreme. I can spin or spin and brake my hips without my arms even moving an inch if I wish.
In regard to maximizing clubhead speed should the hips:
-spin hard?
-brake hard?
-merely smoothly initiate?
OK... I'm with you now... I'll attempt an answer before I leave...
Basically I agree with Bio's mentor (Welch), i.e. the brains in that operation. Wether walking or golfing we create "motion" by shifting our CG thereby creating a temporary imbalance. In the golf swing we "fall" (and catch ourselves). Where I differ with Welch's concept its the notion that that its the shear force reaction at the feet that is what's most important. That concerns motion in the horizontal plane but it neglects the larger motion in the vertical (yes I know horz. and vertical are not the "correct" terms here). Bottomline is all golfers are (falling) in some combination of horz AND vert.
Just a suggestion... If yYou want to improve your golf swing, take the spikes off your shoes and go practice hitting off loose dirt (using a tee) where your feet will slip if you apply too much shear force. It will teach you to "fall" in the vertical plane. IMOP that's key.. that's where the "power" is at.
Take a look at young Mike Austin. http://www.mikeaustingolf.com/video/early_lessons.wmv He's falling around a posted left leg. Centripetal acceleration keeps him rotating about his posted left leg the same way it keeps the moon rotating about earth. He's falling in the vertical (not horizontal) plane. Even still, angular momentum is changing ... its not being conserved.
I leave you with this: COAM and Kinetic Chain Momentum transfer is BS. Hand path and learning to fall correctly are key and always Swing easy hit hard.
no_mind
Originally Posted by pistol
no nmgolfer im interested in delayed hip action..for e.g move the center of mass to the left earlier while the shoulders/arms/hands are still loading . So they move forward on an angle..bit of a lull..and then boom
No mind golfer,
depends how you take an insult, in australia we call this Sh''t stirring, stirring your mates up and getting a reaction, it's all fun and games.
I never take what you say personally, I laugh at your insults.
If you agree with shear forces , then your admitting your agreeing with conservation of monentum, and coam.
how you think normal and shear forces work, conservation momentum.
OK... I'm with you now... I'll attempt an answer before I leave...
Basically I agree with Bio's mentor (Welch), i.e. the brains in that operation. Wether walking or golfing we create "motion" by shifting our CG thereby creating a temporary imbalance. In the golf swing we "fall" (and catch ourselves). Where I differ with Welch's concept its the notion that that its the shear force reaction at the feet that is what's most important. That concerns motion in the horizontal plane but it neglects the larger motion in the vertical (yes I know horz. and vertical are not the "correct" terms here). Bottomline is all golfers are (falling) in some combination of horz AND vert.
Just a suggestion... If yYou want to improve your golf swing, take the spikes off your shoes and go practice hitting off loose dirt (using a tee) where your feet will slip if you apply too much shear force. It will teach you to "fall" in the vertical plane. IMOP that's key.. that's where the "power" is at.
Take a look at young Mike Austin. http://www.mikeaustingolf.com/video/early_lessons.wmv He's falling around a posted left leg. Centripetal acceleration keeps him rotating about his posted left leg the same way it keeps the moon rotating about earth. He's falling in the vertical (not horizontal) plane. Even still, angular momentum is changing ... its not being conserved.
I leave you with this: COAM and Kinetic Chain Momentum transfer is BS. Hand path and learning to fall correctly are key and always Swing easy hit hard.
no_mind
Hey NM, I think you are the guy who told someone on another forum not to lie about moving objects on car dashboards to an English major golf pro who was obviously quite confused and leery about the professional advice and information to "use your pivot to snap your Kinetic Chain, and to assist your arms, hands, and club with creating the proper D plane for the selected shot. Everything else is show biz." They deleted all your posts and maybe some other poster's posts as well, so I'm not sure it was you. Thanks for sticking up for me if it was indeed you.
Anyway, my posts to that site haven't been deleted and since the time you were wiped out, I've continued to post there to implore anyone to explain to me in the Queen's English what the hell a "kinetic chain snap" is and how you can use your "pivot" to do it. Well I haven't gotten any good answers except that I am wrong to even cast a doubt in the direction of pivot induced kinetic chain snapping since some PHD clearly posted and explained a diagram of 16 or 8 piece linked chains to show that kinetic chain snapping is not only possible but likely necessary to generate the adequate or "missing?" horsepower that Cochran and Stobbs struggled to substantiate in order for good golfers to hit balls as far as they do..
I have been studying biomechanical research concerning the golfswing for many years and I've yet to uncover solid evidence to support the idea that power in good golf swings is generated by rotational movements of the pelvis and spine. Of course these rotations are necessary to create good backswings, good transitions, and good downswing posturings to strike the ball well, but I've never heard of these rotations (especially hip/pelvic rotations) as being able to generate or store significant power for golf. In fact I'm struggling to find any credible biomechanical literature wherein twisting, or coiling, or winding up, or pivoting of the pelvis and torso are used to describe dominant power generation in any powerful forms of human locomotion.
The credible research that I have studied strongly suggests that the difficult to describe lateral slide and resultant weight pressure shift and slight pivot of the hip girdle toward the target and onto the left leg is responsible for generating the real power for good golf swings. The research always describes this lateral pelvic shift/slight rotation as occurring BEFORE the completion of the backswing, and the research generally claims that this movement serves two critical functions in good golf swings: First, it is opposed by the grounded left foot and this opposition promotes subsequent rotation of the pelvis to the left about and above the left femoral head, which allows the pelvic girdle to rotate and face the target by the end of the swing. Second, it serves to pre-stretch principle upper extremity adductors (primarily pectoralis major and latissimus dorsi) before golfers initiate the downswing by contracting those muscles. More recent research shows that this PRE-DOWNSWING lateral weight pressure shift and slight leftward rotation of the pelvic girdle likely pre-stretches the right external oblique muscle as well, which will subsequently contract and initiate torso rotation to the left side on the downswing. It is the stretching and subsequent contraction of these muscles that enhance or harness the power created by the initial PRE-DOWNSWING lateral shift and slight rotation of the pelvis. I'd like to throw in that I hope most golfers have effectively hinged their right forearm about its elbow and both hands about their wrists, thus pre-stretching the right triceps and both sets of appropriate forearm muscles to contract on the downswing to further and dramatically enhance or harness the power generated by the initial PRE-DOWNSWING lateral shift and slight rotation of the pelvis.
I interpret from your posts that you basically espouse the validity of the research that I have studied. None of this research describes COAM or pivot induced kinetic chain snapping as enhancing, harnessing or "overpowering?" power generation. Golfswings are kinetic chains but "kinetic chains" are merely descriptions of types of movement and/or sequencing of movements within a given activity. I don't think "kinetic chains" describe power generation or power enhancement.
I think a lot of good people have been convinced that the lateral pelvic shift/rotation thing STARTS the downswing instead of PRECEDES it. If measurements are taken of a PRECEDING THE DOWNSWING MOTION as being a START OF THE DOWNSWING motion, then those measurements will likely be compared to a backswing that hasn't ended yet - and huge brain snaps will occur in the wrong direction as a result.
By the way, Tiger is the best at slowing and stopping his pivot and arms after he starts the downswing, especially when he hears a camera click, but alas, the club never hits the ball because it stopped too!
NM, thanks for sticking to your guns. I don't want to write any more posts for a long time. If anyone can be right concerning this subject, I firmly believe that it is you. Don't let it go to your head though!
One thing I've liked about this forum is that for the most part the posts are cordial and there is an effort to "understand and learn". For that to happen - two people must provide new information and using reason - eventually come to a common understanding. There is always a place for debate or strong disagreement but when you run out of "ammunition" it's probably time to stop and walk away instead heading down the road of name calling or degrading the other persons character in order to "win". In fact if you do that - you probably don't have the information to support your statements- fully i.e. to have someone else understand them.
Since I'm not an owner of this site nor an administrator of this site- you don't need to listen to me - my only credentials are 900+ posts - some good - some bad - but here's just a thought -
1) if you've posted on this thread
2) if you are new to the forum with less than 20 lifetime posts
3) if you've re-read your posts and found that you've more than once personally attacked the character of another forum member (whether provoked or not)
4) Then, consider either changing your approach or leave!
I've got a nice neighborhood and nice neighbors - we have certain rules in the Association, certain standards of conduct. You're probably accustomed to living in today's world where anything goes- where there is no black and white - where you feel some fundamental right to act however you want - you know - "free speech"- if that's the case then GET OUT OF MY NEIGHBORHOOD!
Bucket is alive! I was afraid the poultry police took him....
__________________ Hitting the Ball is the easiest part of the game-hitting it effectively is the most difficult. Why trust instinct when there is a science."1-G.
That's the best you could do? You're slippin Bra!
What the hell just happened there? BamBam please check where you left a window open- the Bucket has escaped the mental ward and is now back!!! Run!!
P.S. And I sense that Okie's doubting that I would qualify for a home owner's assocation?!
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
I have been studying biomechanical research concerning the golfswing for many years and I've yet to uncover solid evidence to support the idea that power in good golf swings is generated by rotational movements of the pelvis and spine. Of course these rotations are necessary to create good backswings, good transitions, and good downswing posturings to strike the ball well, but I've never heard of these rotations (especially hip/pelvic rotations) as being able to generate or store significant power for golf. In fact I'm struggling to find any credible biomechanical literature wherein twisting, or coiling, or winding up, or pivoting of the pelvis and torso are used to describe dominant power generation in any powerful forms of human locomotion.
Really good stuff, coophitter. Thank you for another great post.
B. J. Hathaway, G.S.E.B., M.C.I.
BamBam please check where you left a window open- the Bucket has escaped the mental ward and is now back!!! Run!!
Linear Mode
