Assuming Dual Horizontal Hinging (10-10-D) or even Dual Vertical Hinging (10-10-E) or simply Angled Hinging (10-10-C), I agree wholeheartedly with Neil. The 'Dual' refers to one Plane of Motion for the Clubshaft (Inclined) and another for the Clubface (Horizontal or Vertical). In other words, whatever the Motion of the Clubface -- Close Only (Horizontal Hinging), Layback Only (Vertical Hinging) or Simultaneous Close and Layback (Anged Hinging) -- we assume an Inclined Plane of Motion of the Clubshaft, i.e., the Golf Stroke itself.
However, with a Putt or very short Chip Shot, the Clubhead can be made to cover the Line, thereby remaining in a Vertical Plane and thus ignoring the Inclined Plane. Then and only then will the Club continuously 'scrape the wall.'
Normally, though, the Club is swung on an Inclined Plane. Then, with the Ball located somewhat back of the normal Low Point, i.e., opposite the Left Shoulder, the Clubhead will 'scrape' very little a vertical wall in Start Up. Instead, it will move Up, Back and In immediately on an inclined wall. In so doing, it will always point at -- but not cover! -- its Straight Line Base Line (Plane Line).
Then, having merely scraped the wallboard momentarily in Start Up, the Clubhead will obliterate it as it moves Down, Out and Forward through Impact and Low Point during the Follow-Through.
Bossman . . . TOTALLY with you on the Inclined Plane deal. I must clarify my wall example which is for obvious reasons a poor one with regards to golf being played on an inclined plane. Let us forget about walls and planes for a sec . . . . assuming we have a clubhead that is on plane (thus tracing a straight plane line) how much clubface motion could we expect with horizontal hinging for say 12 inches prior to impact point and 12 inches after separation? I'm thinking that maybe people have the clubface rotating TOO MUCH when using horizontal hinging (swivel vs. hinging).
Take a look at these clubfaces . . . What are we seeing? Can we make a statement about what hinge action we are seeing with these? These clubfaces seem to be pretty "quiet" to me.
Bossman . . . TOTALLY with you on the Inclined Plane deal. I must clarify my wall example which is for obvious reasons a poor one with regards to golf being played on an inclined plane. Let us forget about walls and planes for a sec . . . .
... how much clubface motion could we expect with horizontal hinging for say 12 inches prior to impact point and 12 inches after separation? I'm thinking that maybe people have the clubface rotating TOO MUCH when using horizontal hinging (swivel vs. hinging).
Swingers typically execute Release as Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A). In other words, from Release to Impact, the Left Wrist executes an Uncock and Roll.
This Release Roll is a true Swivel -- independent Wrist Motion -- from Release to Impact. This is followed by a Hinge Action 'Roll' (the Left Wrist simply remaining vertical to one of the three associated Planes) from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position).
For a given Clubface executing Horizontal Hinge Action (Closing Only) about a constant Pivot Swing Center -- there can be only so many finite degrees of travel.
For a given Clubface executing Horizontal Hinge Action (Closing Only) about a constant Pivot Swing Center -- there can be only so many finite degrees of travel.
Sorry about changing the rules on you
This may be a better dealie . . .
I just took a club and held it against the door. Opened and closed the door 2 feet back 2 feet through . . . This would certainly qualify as Horizontal Hinging no? There ain't a whole lot of action going on with that clubface. It is closing without question. BUT the toe ain't slammin' shut like a screen door in a trailer park during a tornado.
At least for me that was an education . . . My version of Horizontal Hinging was FOR SURE Swivel and add a Turned Left Hand to the mix . . . I'm deeeeeeep in the woods where the elephants go to die.
I just took a club and held it against the door. Opened and closed the door 2 feet back 2 feet through . . . This would certainly qualify as Horizontal Hinging no? There ain't a whole lot of action going on with that clubface. It is closing without question. BUT the toe ain't slammin' shut like a screen door in a trailer park during a tornado.
At least for me that was an education . . . My version of Horizontal Hinging was FOR SURE Swivel and add a Turned Left Hand to the mix . . . I'm deeeeeeep in the woods where the elephants go to die.
Bucket ,the door is reflecting the hinge action -but not on an inclined plane
But the closing only motion is the same.It's got to close from "on plane" at the start of release,to square at separation -so depending how late you release,it may have to close 90* in -say-4 feet. 22.5* per foot!
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neil k
Last edited by neil : 09-14-2007 at 07:59 AM.
Reason: addition
Bucket ,the door is reflecting the hinge action -but not on an inclined plane.
But the closing only motion is the same. It's got to close from "on plane" at the start of release,to square at separation -so depending how late you release,it may have to close 90* in -say-4 feet. 22.5* per foot!
Assuming Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A), the Clubface Closing Action from Release to Impact is a Swivel Action, i.e., the Turned Left Wrist returning to its Vertical alignment for Impact. Only from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through is there a Hinge Action, i.e., the Left Wrist remaining in its Vertical alignment to one of the three Associated Planes (Horizontal, Vertical or Angled).
Assuming Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A), the Clubface Closing Action from Release to Impact is a Swivel Action, i.e., the Turned Left Wrist returning to its Vertical alignment for Impact. Only from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through is there a Hinge Action, i.e., the Left Wrist remaining in its Vertical alignment to one of the three Associated Planes (Horizontal, Vertical or Angled).
BUT the toe ain't slammin' shut like a screen door in a trailer park during a tornado.
I may be misunderstanding your intent, but as long as the screen door is installed on hinges, the "clubface" or door motion is still the exact same.
Same action of the clubface, but at a different rate of speed (therefore, no "timing" of clubface closing - no matter your rate of speed). Push a door as hard as you want, it will still line up exactly with the frame (at some point along its journey).
As far as how much clubface rotation, the amount will be perfect every time if you take care of proper alignment and physics, (that is FLW held vertical to the related basic plane (a condition) and orbiting arms and/or torso) and also if you just know that hinging is not idependent wrist rotation. So this might say, if worried about executing a swivel instead of hinging, feel what the arms and torso are torso are doing - only orbiting, no effort towards any independent wrist rotation.
I may be misunderstanding your intent, but as long as the screen door is installed on hinges, the "clubface" or door motion is still the exact same.
Same action of the clubface, but at a different rate of speed (therefore, no "timing" of clubface closing - no matter your rate of speed). Push a door as hard as you want, it will still line up exactly with the frame (at some point along its journey).
As far as how much clubface rotation, the amount will be perfect every time if you take care of proper alignment and physics, (that is FLW held vertical to the related basic plane (a condition) and orbiting arms and/or torso) and also if you just know that hinging is not idependent wrist rotation. So this might say, if worried about executing a swivel instead of hinging, feel what the arms and torso are torso are doing - only orbiting, no effort towards any independent wrist rotation.
Check out the Swingvisions. Pay attention to the end of each one where the isolate the club. The toe of those clubs is certainly closing . . . but the rate of closing is VERY SMALL.
Per 2-G, Stop at the end of a short Chip Shot – the Club at about 45 degrees. With Horizontal Hinging, the toe of the Club will point along the Plane Line
My misunderstanding I think was that the toe ALWAYS pointed along the plane line thus causing an over-roll and fast rate of closing. So the key is it points along the plane line when you stop the clubshaft at 45 DEGREES
By strict definition Hinging is only from the point of impact to separation . . . so I would say that it is pretty difficult to distinguish what hinge motion a player is using. Again at some small distance the club is moving pretty much in a straight line . . . and for that small distance there is I would surmise very little difference in the amount of CLOSING for Horizontal Hinging and Angled Hinging. I would say that you have a better chance of distinguishing the Hinge Action by looking at LAYBACK rather than closing.
There are some pictures of Vijay where he looks to be executing Swivel through Impact rather than Hinge Motion.
So maybe this experiment is flawed but if you take the toe of your club and place it against a wall and scrape for 12 inches back and through . . . . the toe doesn't move all that much in differentiating the Hinge Motions for that 12 inch span . . . which IS where the rubber meets the road. Or if you don't like the wall experiment . . . do it on a low bench as Homer advised. The rotation about the sweetspot ain't all that much . . . I don't think.
Per 2-G, Stop at the end of a short Chip Shot – the Club at about 45 degrees. With Horizontal Hinging, the toe of the Club will point along the Plane Line
There are some pictures of Vijay where he looks to be executing Swivel through Impact rather than Hinge Motion.
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My post was to say that the club will automatically achieve the above postion with proper alignments and physics. No need to think " I'm going to use horizontal hinging, so I need to make the clubface point along the plane line at some point." Rather think, FLW held in condition vertical to related basic plane and orbiting arms/ and or torso. Absolutely no concern for "rate" of closesure for clubface alignment. With proper hinging, varying closure rate will only effect the distance the ball travels (no matter what the speed, clubface will still be in the same position at impact and separation with proper hinging - meaning same relative postion for two different speeds; not that the clubface has the same position at impact and separation).
I have no idea, but I wouldn't doubt that a lot of pros might execute swivels through impact ( and they can "time" the action really well, or they hit a bad shot). And then you have golfers who have always executed swivels through impact, with inconsistent results. And then they might come to a "half truth" realization to "take the hands out of the swing and use body rotation" - see Nick Faldo.
With proper hinge action, toe closure "is what it is", very precise and exact, no degrees of (just rides the installed hinge). To be picky, I don't know about labeling "it isn't that much." Because there certainly is closure. But certainly less than if one executes a swivel through impact (which is what I think your correct point is).
Hybrid Mode
