Right Arm Swing and 4 Barrel Swing

[Jeff]

DG - I have watched the lesson number 2 video and the chapter 5 video a few times.

I will now recount what I think that Tom Tomasello was saying, and you can correct me if I am wrong.

Tom was saying that one should throw the right arm at the ball, and that the body should simply get out of the way. He also talked about a push action with reference to the right upper limb, rather than a pull action. He also emphasized the point that when throwing the right arm/forearm at the ball that the right wrist will not become unhinged (neutral or palmar flexed) at impact, and that the right wrist will therefore still be bent (dorsiflexed) at impact.

OK. So, how does he power the swing in his "right arm throw action"? If the pivoting body is not pulling the right arm flying wedge unit (ala Hogan's swing style) and the body is simply getting out of the way during the right "arm throw" action, then the right arm/forearm is pushing forward while the body is getting out of the way. What muscles can "push" the right arm/forearm forward while the body is clearing out of the way? Surely, it must be the shoulder girdle muscles that adduct the right upper arm. While this is happening, the right elbow remains bent, which means that there is isometric tone in the right upper arm muscles that maintain the bent right elbow in the early/mid downswing. At a certain point, the right elbow must straighten. Now, Tom did not specify whether the right elbow straightens due to active muscle contraction of the right triceps muscle (as would occur in a hitter) or whether it is due to a passive pull from a clubshaft that is releasing. I will presume that it is the former - right triceps muscle contraction that actively straightens the right elbow (active release of power accumulator #1). He was not apparently describing a hitting action (thrust in a radial direction as in an axe handle action). I therefore presume that the active release of power accumulator #1 causes right palm pressure against preesure point #1, and that it pushes the left hand, and therefore left arm, forward (as a right arm swinger's action).

To summarise my understanding of Tom's "right arm throw" swing, the power release sequence is 4,1, 2, 3 where power accumulator #4 is powered by the right arm/forearm pushing action (performed by a pulling/shortening of the shoulder girdle muscles that adduct the right arm plus an isometric-pushing action of the right arm/forearm muscles) rather than a downswing pivot action, and where power accumulator #1 release is active (rather than passive).

Is my description accurate, or inaccurate? Feel free to "correct" me as necessary.

Jeff.

[Jeff]

Yoda - you wrote-: "The Pivot Delivers the Bent Right Elbow into Release.---
The Straightening Right Elbow Delivers the Left Arm and Club into Impact and Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position)."

You don't state whether the right elbow straightening is an active or a passive phenomenon.

It is my understanding, from reading the TGM book, that in a swinger's action, the pivot delivers the entire power package assembly intact to the delivery position, and that release of the power package then happens due to the following phenomenon.

When the downswing pivot action subsides in the mid downswing, the left arm is catapulted off the chest (via the pivot-activated release of power accumulator #4) and therefore the left arm is moving towards the target with enough momentum to reach, and pass, the impact position. The right elbow then straightens passively in this scenario, with no need for any isotonic right triceps muscle action. The right triceps only has to have enough isometric tone to allow the right forearm to be driven forward so that it keeps up with the left arm, and simultaneously maintains extensor action throughout the entire downswing.

Does my description represent your understanding of a swinger's action?

In the Tom Tomasello video tapes, he talks of the two forearms pulling the entire power package down to waist level while the body clears out of the way. He then states that the "right arm hits the ball", which seemingly implies that the right elbow straightening action is an active action. Therefore, Tom Tomasello is apparently describing a 4-barrel swing action activated by the right arm throw action - in the following sequence 4, 1,2,3. Power accumulator #4 is released by the "two forearms" pulling the entire power package downwards and thereby simultaneously propelling the left arm forward (while the pivot action simply allows the body to get out of the way), and then the right elbow straightens actively releasing power accumulator #1.

Is that how you understand the TT right arm swing action that DG recommends?

Why would DG believe that TT's right arm swing action is preferable to the standard pivot-driven triple barrel swing action (4,2,3)?

Jeff.

[pistol]

In the Tom Tomasello video tapes, he talks of the two forearms pulling the entire power package down to waist level while the body clears out of the way. He then states that the "right arm hits the ball", which seemingly implies that the right elbow straightening action is an active action. Therefore, Tom Tomasello is apparently describing a 4-barrel swing action activated by the right arm throw action - in the following sequence 4, 1,2,3. Power accumulator #4 is released by the "two forearms" pulling the entire power package downwards and thereby simultaneously propelling the left arm forward (while the pivot action simply allows the body to get out of the way), and then the right elbow straightens actively releasing power accumulator #1.

Is that how you understand the TT right arm swing action that DG recommends?

Why would DG believe that TT's right arm swing action is preferable to the standard pivot-driven triple barrel swing action (4,2,3)?

Jeff.

Jeff watch the lee dietrick video and TT sitting on the chair demonstrating the right hand karate chop motion and it will become very clear ( left hand grip is important as well)
Is it superior? Well Ben Hogan did it so there is the answer right there. Now i can understand why TT was considered controversial but really the genius is there for all to see

[Yoda]

Yoda - you wrote-: "The Pivot Delivers the Bent Right Elbow into Release.---
The Straightening Right Elbow Delivers the Left Arm and Club into Impact and Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position)."

You don't state whether the right elbow straightening is an active or a passive phenomenon.

As I have written many times in these pages, the Swinger's Right Arm is passive with regards to thrust, but active with regards to Extensor Action and sensing Lag Pressure. One thing is for sure: Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten, and the Left Arm and Club is driven by that action. Otherwise, nothing moves!

It is my understanding, from reading the TGM book, that in a swinger's action, the pivot delivers the entire power package assembly intact to the delivery position, and that release of the power package then happens due to the following phenomenon.

When the downswing pivot action subsides in the mid downswing, the left arm is catapulted off the chest (via the pivot-activated release of power accumulator #4) and therefore the left arm is moving towards the target with enough momentum to reach, and pass, the impact position. The right elbow then straightens passively in this scenario, with no need for any isotonic right triceps muscle action. The right triceps only has to have enough isometric tone to allow the right forearm to be driven forward so that it keeps up with the left arm, and simultaneously maintains extensor action throughout the entire downswing.

Does my description represent your understanding of a swinger's action?

Yes. And my sense is that you did not gain these insights strictly from reading the book and meditating on its contents.

In the Tom Tomasello video tapes, he talks of the two forearms pulling the entire power package down to waist level while the body clears out of the way. He then states that the "right arm hits the ball", which seemingly implies that the right elbow straightening action is an active action. Therefore, Tom Tomasello is apparently describing a 4-barrel swing action activated by the right arm throw action - in the following sequence 4, 1,2,3. Power accumulator #4 is released by the "two forearms" pulling the entire power package downwards and thereby simultaneously propelling the left arm forward (while the pivot action simply allows the body to get out of the way), and then the right elbow straightens actively releasing power accumulator #1.

Is that how you understand the TT right arm swing action that DG recommends?

No comment.

Why would DG believe that TT's right arm swing action is preferable to the standard pivot-driven triple barrel swing action (4,2,3)?

Ask DG.

He will respond.

Promise!

[Jeff]

Yoda - I don't understand this statement.

"Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten, and the Left Arm and Club is driven by that action. Otherwise, nothing moves!"

You seem to be implying that the straightening right arm actively drives the left arm and club in a swinger's action. I thought that the downswing pivot action catapults the left arm away from the torso when the downswing pivot action subsides and that the left arm continues to move targetwards because of the momentum gained from this catapulting force. I therefore presume that the right arm straightens passively because the right hand is conjoined to the left hand at the grip end of the club, and the right hand must move as fast as the left hand. In other words, I do not perceive that the straightening right arm is actively driving the left arm and club in a swinger's action, but merely "keeping pace" (= having enough active muscle contractile force to move the right hand at the same speed as the left hand).

Am I wrong?

You are right! A lot of my understanding of HK's writing comes from other sources - primarily from your archived posts. You have a great explicatory gift when it comes to making HK's obtuse prose more readily understandable.

Jeff.

[Jeff]

Pistol

I have viewed TT describing the right hand karate chop motion in that video. Do you interpret his description of that action differently to the description that I have already proffered with respect to my personal interpretation of TT's right arm throw action swing?

Are you implying that Ben Hogan used an active right arm throw action and/or an active right elbow straightening action in his full swing? If "yes" - could you please provide the "evidence" so that I can better understand why you believe those facts.

Jeff.

[KOC]

From my observations:

Hogan: The Magic of the Right Forearm
HK: The Magic of the Right Forearm
TT: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Blake: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Els: The Magic of the Right Forearm

Longitudinal or Radial acceleration it's All About the Right Forearm.

Are they all using the Right Forearm in the same way?
I don't think so.

What about hips?

The hips might be the single most important component of the golf swing and not all golfers automatically "use" them in the best way by using the Right Forearm to trigger the downswing as TT often says happens automatically I don't think it applies to all.

just my thoughts

Birdie Chance

What is the difference between the two gals throwing a ball?

It is all about the pivot…(or the dress code)

[pistol]

Pistol

I have viewed TT describing the right hand karate chop motion in that video. Do you interpret his description of that action differently to the description that I have already proffered with respect to my personal interpretation of TT's right arm throw action swing?

Are you implying that Ben Hogan used an active right arm throw action and/or an active right elbow straightening action in his full swing? If "yes" - could you please provide the "evidence" so that I can better understand why you believe those facts.

Jeff.

In my opinion Jeff the action that TT is demonstrating is a wrist/hand throw with the right hand being dominant. Contrary to what you are stating the the right elbow is not part of the deal and when done properly will actually put the right elbow in a more pitch condition and the true magic of the right forearm will happen.
Evidence lets see what did Hogan say "i wish i had 3 right hands" and any video or photo will never tell you what really happens

[Yoda]

Yoda - I don't understand this statement.

"Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten, and the Left Arm and Club is driven by that action. Otherwise, nothing moves!"

Let me rephrase a bit and see if it helps:

"Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten. That motion permits the [Swinger's] Left Arm and Club to continue its centrifugally-driven journey into Impact. Otherwise, nothing moves!"

I like this second versio0n better because it differentiates action (actively doing work) from motion (passively permitting other things to occur).

For further clarification of Right Elbow participation Through the Ball (7-24), study 6-A-1 (the straightening Right Arm changing the shape of the Power Package Triangle); 7-20 (the lengthening Right Arm Triggering the Release); and 6-B-3-0 (Hand Motion "'Roll Power Control'" of the Right Elbow and "true Clubhead Overtaking Control").

[Jeff]

Yoda

Thank you for the clarification. It is now much more precisely expressed, and it is now 100% concordant with many statements that you have previously made in your archived posts. I was worried that I may have misunderstood your previous archived posts when I first saw the phrase "driven by that action". Your now preferred use of the term "motion" promotes a very different understanding of the biomechanics of the right elbow's motion.

Pistol

You state that TT is implying a right hand/wrist throw. That "belief" really confuses me because I have understood TT to believe in HK's teaching that the right wrist should remain bent throughout the downswing and early (+/- late) followthrough. If the right wrist remains bent, then it is not released, so in what sense is the right wrist/hand thrown (in a way that doesn't involve the elbow joint)?

You also quote as "evidence" for your belief that Hogan used an active right hand/wrist throw the following Hogan statement -: "I wish I had three right hands."

You obviously have a very different understanding of what the word "evidence" means with respect to understanding the biomechanics of a particular golfer's swing.

Jeff.