Right Arm Swing and 4 Barrel Swing

[Jeff]

Yoda - I don't understand this statement.

"Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten, and the Left Arm and Club is driven by that action. Otherwise, nothing moves!"

You seem to be implying that the straightening right arm actively drives the left arm and club in a swinger's action. I thought that the downswing pivot action catapults the left arm away from the torso when the downswing pivot action subsides and that the left arm continues to move targetwards because of the momentum gained from this catapulting force. I therefore presume that the right arm straightens passively because the right hand is conjoined to the left hand at the grip end of the club, and the right hand must move as fast as the left hand. In other words, I do not perceive that the straightening right arm is actively driving the left arm and club in a swinger's action, but merely "keeping pace" (= having enough active muscle contractile force to move the right hand at the same speed as the left hand).

Am I wrong?

You are right! A lot of my understanding of HK's writing comes from other sources - primarily from your archived posts. You have a great explicatory gift when it comes to making HK's obtuse prose more readily understandable.

Jeff.

[Jeff]

Pistol

I have viewed TT describing the right hand karate chop motion in that video. Do you interpret his description of that action differently to the description that I have already proffered with respect to my personal interpretation of TT's right arm throw action swing?

Are you implying that Ben Hogan used an active right arm throw action and/or an active right elbow straightening action in his full swing? If "yes" - could you please provide the "evidence" so that I can better understand why you believe those facts.

Jeff.

[KOC]

From my observations:

Hogan: The Magic of the Right Forearm
HK: The Magic of the Right Forearm
TT: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Blake: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Els: The Magic of the Right Forearm

Longitudinal or Radial acceleration it's All About the Right Forearm.

Are they all using the Right Forearm in the same way?
I don't think so.

What about hips?

The hips might be the single most important component of the golf swing and not all golfers automatically "use" them in the best way by using the Right Forearm to trigger the downswing as TT often says happens automatically I don't think it applies to all.

just my thoughts

Birdie Chance

What is the difference between the two gals throwing a ball?

It is all about the pivot…(or the dress code)

[pistol]

Pistol

I have viewed TT describing the right hand karate chop motion in that video. Do you interpret his description of that action differently to the description that I have already proffered with respect to my personal interpretation of TT's right arm throw action swing?

Are you implying that Ben Hogan used an active right arm throw action and/or an active right elbow straightening action in his full swing? If "yes" - could you please provide the "evidence" so that I can better understand why you believe those facts.

Jeff.

In my opinion Jeff the action that TT is demonstrating is a wrist/hand throw with the right hand being dominant. Contrary to what you are stating the the right elbow is not part of the deal and when done properly will actually put the right elbow in a more pitch condition and the true magic of the right forearm will happen.
Evidence lets see what did Hogan say "i wish i had 3 right hands" and any video or photo will never tell you what really happens

[Yoda]

Yoda - I don't understand this statement.

"Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten, and the Left Arm and Club is driven by that action. Otherwise, nothing moves!"

Let me rephrase a bit and see if it helps:

"Once the Right Shoulder has Delivered the Power Package to Release, the Right Elbow must straighten. That motion permits the [Swinger's] Left Arm and Club to continue its centrifugally-driven journey into Impact. Otherwise, nothing moves!"

I like this second versio0n better because it differentiates action (actively doing work) from motion (passively permitting other things to occur).

For further clarification of Right Elbow participation Through the Ball (7-24), study 6-A-1 (the straightening Right Arm changing the shape of the Power Package Triangle); 7-20 (the lengthening Right Arm Triggering the Release); and 6-B-3-0 (Hand Motion "'Roll Power Control'" of the Right Elbow and "true Clubhead Overtaking Control").

[Jeff]

Yoda

Thank you for the clarification. It is now much more precisely expressed, and it is now 100% concordant with many statements that you have previously made in your archived posts. I was worried that I may have misunderstood your previous archived posts when I first saw the phrase "driven by that action". Your now preferred use of the term "motion" promotes a very different understanding of the biomechanics of the right elbow's motion.

Pistol

You state that TT is implying a right hand/wrist throw. That "belief" really confuses me because I have understood TT to believe in HK's teaching that the right wrist should remain bent throughout the downswing and early (+/- late) followthrough. If the right wrist remains bent, then it is not released, so in what sense is the right wrist/hand thrown (in a way that doesn't involve the elbow joint)?

You also quote as "evidence" for your belief that Hogan used an active right hand/wrist throw the following Hogan statement -: "I wish I had three right hands."

You obviously have a very different understanding of what the word "evidence" means with respect to understanding the biomechanics of a particular golfer's swing.

Jeff.

[pistol]

Pistol

You state that TT is implying a right hand/wrist throw. That "belief" really confuses me because I have understood TT to believe in HK's teaching that the right wrist should remain bent throughout the downswing and early (+/- late) followthrough. If the right wrist remains bent, then it is not released, so in what sense is the right wrist/hand thrown (in a way that doesn't involve the elbow joint)?

You also quote as "evidence" for your belief that Hogan used an active right hand/wrist throw the following Hogan statement -: "I wish I had three right hands."

You obviously have a very different understanding of what the word "evidence" means with respect to understanding the biomechanics of a particular golfer's swing.

Jeff.

Jeff
All i can say is watch the TT video again and he clearly demostrates a right hand karate chop ( down and out motion ) . I can clearly see you cannot grasp the simple concept that this can be done without the right wrist unbending in the initial stages of the downswing so try this. Put your right arm in front of you and fold your elbow then bend your right wrist away from you so your hand / fingers go down to the ground and the palm of your hand is facing away from you. Right now just move your hand only in a karate chop motion and you will see that the elbow hardly moves and the bend in the right wrist is still there.Now add right shoulder motion to it.To easy isn't it

As far as me not understanding boimechanics well that is your opinion and frankly you have no evidence to the contrary as you simply can not explain why Hogan wanted 3 right hands and FURTHER you could not explain WHY his right hand comes out in follow through in an UNCOCKED postion but I CAN
Simple the Right hand karate chop motion outlined for you above is the CULPRIT

[Bigwill]

...You state that TT is implying a right hand/wrist throw. That "belief" really confuses me because I have understood TT to believe in HK's teaching that the right wrist should remain bent throughout the downswing and early (+/- late) followthrough. If the right wrist remains bent, then it is not released, so in what sense is the right wrist/hand thrown (in a way that doesn't involve the elbow joint)?

.

Jeff,

In the Tomasello video I have ( it's in the Gallery, Tomasello chapter 3), Tom talks about the attempt to release the right side wrist angle. He says to try to "undo the bend", and that as long as the left hip keeps moving, you won't be able to actually "undo the bend". Inertia will prevent the release of the angles from actually happening. It's the difference between actual and intent. Peter Croker (who had worked with Tomasello, I think) is a big proponent of this. I think that Martin Green supports this as well.

My personal belief is that this kind of swing thought is only effective if there's an effective pivot to go along with it. Otherwise, you will flip it; there will be throwaway.

[Jeff]

Pistol - I think that I may possibly understand your right hand karate chop action better.

You are seemingly describing a right wrist uncocking motion whereby the right wrist (while still bent) moves from a level position to an unccocked position (ulnar-deviated position).

If my understanding is correct, then I agree that the right wrist uncocks in Hogan's swing. However, I believe that i) the right wrist always uncocks in all good golfers' swings during the release of power accumulator #3 and that ii) the right wrist uncocking phenomenon is primarily a passive phenomenon. It is my understanding that during release of power accumulator #3, the wrists have to roll as the clubshaft comes into a straight-in-line alignment with the left arm, and that the primary power source for this phenomenon is the club's inherent momentum acquired during the release of power accumulator #2. I therefore think of the release of power accumulator #3 as being a "transfer power" phenomenon, rather than being primarily due to an active right hand uncocking action. I would be interested in learning of Yoda's opinion regarding this matter, and also whether he thinks that it relates to Hogan's statement that he wished he had "three right hands".

Bigwill - I can understand the idea of an "intent" to release the right wrist bend without actually releasing it. However, I think that the right wrist is actually released during the release of power accumulator #3, but that it is not released due to a right wrist palmar flexion action, but rather due to a right wrist ulnar-deviation action.

Here is a photo of Trevor Immleman during the followthrough phase of the swing.



One gains the "impression" that right hand is rolling under, and I think that it's merely due to fact that the right wrist passively deviates ulnarly during the final stage of the club's release action.

Jeff.

[Bigwill]

Bigwill - I can understand the idea of an "intent" to release the right wrist bend without actually releasing it. However, I think that the right wrist is actually released during the release of power accumulator #3, but that it is not released due to a right wrist palmar flexion action, but rather due to a right wrist ulnar-deviation action.

Here is a photo of Trevor Immleman during the followthrough phase of the swing.



One gains the "impression" that right hand is rolling under, and I think that it's merely due to fact that the right wrist passively deviates ulnarly during the final stage of the club's release action.

Jeff.

I think we may be looking at the same picture from different points of view.

I agree that it is released post impact. I don't get the impression of the right wrist rolling under, though. I do see that is flattened, even slightly flexed, in addition to being in a position of ulnar deviation.

Is it possible that the ulnar deviation is simply an effect, rather than a cause (club pulling the right wrist into ul. dev.)? I would think that with the momentum of the club moving at decent speed, it would be pretty difficult to prevent ul. dev. of the right wrist post impact.