Great thread; lots to learn here. Thanks to all who are participating.
Jeff, I understand and agree with your premise regarding the Swinger's passive Right Arm participation. But for me, it does not explain Hogan's desire for "three right hands". In fact, the whole notion of 'passive right arm' conflicts with it.
Here's my view:
As do all good players, Hogan sensed tremendous Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure from Release to the end of the Follow-Through ('Through the Ball' per 7-24). He felt this Lag Pressure (Acceleration Rate / 2-M-2 #1) in his #3 Pressure Point (first joint of the Right Hand forefinger) and wanted more.Alas, since Clubhead Inertia can withstand all the Lag Pressure anyone can generate (7-19), there was no 'more' to get. Thus, with only one right hand, Hogan felt deficient.
Further, though Clubhead Lag Pressure only indirectly drives (7-11) the Club through Impact, it is nonetheless a dominant Feel. In fact, creating and maintaining this Lag Pressure (1-L #7) is no less than The Secret of Golf (6-C-2-0 / - A). And this indirect drive at Pressure Point #3 -- Right Hand -- is transmitted via the passive Power Accumulator #1 -- Right Elbow (6-C-2-C / 10-11-0-3).
All of which explains the Swinger's Feel ("describable sensation" per 1-J and 3-B) of the "stiff-wristed Right Forearm Slap" (Major Basic Stroke / 10-3-B) and the mantra of The Golfing Machine:
Sustain the Lag![3-F-7-B]
Yoda, I'd love to understand your version, but I am too dumb to grasp it. Too bad, since I believe it may be another top post about Hogan...
I agree 200% to the first sentence of yours directed to Jeff.
Yoda, I'd love to understand your version . . . I believe it may be another top post about Hogan . . .
Thanks, Dariusz.
I know it was a tough read, especially for those not well down the road that is TGM. Now that the nuts and bolts are up for the 'deep drillers' -- -- I'll put up a capsule summary ASAP that might actually mean something to the other 98 percent of the readers on this site.
Meanwhile, though, it's Father's Day, and I'm out for a family celebration!
I look forward to your capsule summary. I hope that you will address the following issue in particular.
You stated-: "Of course, the same thing is happening with the Right Arm: It is being Pulled by the Body, its rotation and the ultimating Centrifugal Force. But, it is easy for the player's Right Hand to mistake this Pull - against the Lag Pressure it generates -- as a Push."
If I understand you correctly, Hogan had a body-generated swinger's action, whereby the downswing pivot action essentially provides the swing power. I envisage the downswing pivot action pulling the entire power package assembly (left and right arm flying wedges) at the start of the downswing, so that the right arm/forearm merely has to supply sufficient isometric muscle force to maintain the right arm flying wedge intact during the early/mid downswing. Then, when power accumulator #4 and then #2 release, the right arm/forearm needs to supply enough muscle force to maintain the constantly bent right wrist/right hand firmly against the grip/left thumb so that the golfer can provide constant extensor action throughout the downswing and also constantly sustain clubhead lag and prevent club throwaway.
I would also be interested in your opinion as to whether a Tom Tomasello-style "right arm throw" action is suitable for right arm-swingers, who do not use the downswing pivot action to release power accumulator #4. Tom Tomasello stated that in an "arm swinger's" action, the body simply gets out of the way so that the arms can swing freely across the front of the body. In that scenario, I can envisage the the right arm/forearm being actively responsible for the release of power accumulator #4 - by the right palm pressing against the left thumb at PP#1 and pushing the entire left arm forward. In that sense, I can envisage the "right arm throw" action causing the release of power accumulator #4 via an active "push"' action, and the release of power accumulator #2 via a secondary "pull" action on the clubshaft (the right forearm/arm pushes the left arm forward at PP#1 => the left hand pulls the grip => the club passively releases via a centrifugal action). The question then becomes - does the right arm/forearm also cause an active release of power accumulator #1 in a right arm swinger's action, or is the right arm swinger's action still a triple barrel (4:2:3) swing action?
I would also be interested in your opinion as to whether a Tom Tomasello-style "right arm throw" action is suitable for right arm-swingers, who do not use the downswing pivot action to release power accumulator #4. Tom Tomasello stated . . .
I have written countless posts on the various Release Triggers, including the Right Arm Throw and its Shoulder Turn Throw Combination. I will continue to address selectively specific questions regarding the Triggers, but not in a 'Tomasello' context. His teachings, however widely chronicled, are vastly misunderstood, as evidenced by your question framing them in the context of Right Arm Swing.
In any event, this is not the appropriate thread for such discussions. For those interested, Bagger Lance has established a Right Arm Swing thread precisely for that purpose. http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=5617 And a few clicks will lead others to numerous 'Tomasello' threads.
Thank you in advance for understanding.
P.S.
Originally Posted by Jeff
The question then becomes - does the right arm/forearm also cause an active release of power accumulator #1 in a right arm swinger's action, or is the right arm swinger's action still a triple barrel (4:2:3) swing action?
By definition, except as Clubshaft support per 10-19-C, the #1 Accumulator (Muscular Thrust) is always passive in a Swinging Action (Centrifugal Force). That is true whether the Swing is with the Left Arm or the Right.
I believe Hogan qualified his “three right hands” statement with the following paragraph.
“On a full shot you want to hit the ball as hard as you can with your right hand. But this is only half the story. HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS. The left is a power hand, too. If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you also will run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left. YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT. “ (Lesson 4 page 99)
In the paragraph above he appears more concerned with the left not doing its job (going to sleep) and being overpowered by the right rather than being worried about a deficient right hand. He also wanted the “…right hand in a position to perform its share of the work but no more than its equal share”. (Lesson 1 p24). Here again he appears more concerned about the right hand dominating rather than it being deficient.
Given equal strength in both hands, if he desired the power of three right hands he must have also desired the power of three left hands (“the left is a power hand, too.”) so that the right hand did not dominate and in order to achieve his objective, which was to “HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS.”
I believe Hogan qualified his “three right hands” statement with the following paragraph.
“On a full shot you want to hit the ball as hard as you can with your right hand. But this is only half the story. HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS. The left is a power hand, too. If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you also will run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left. YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT. “ (Lesson 4 page 99)
In the paragraph above he appears more concerned with the left not doing its job (going to sleep) and being overpowered by the right rather than being worried about a deficient right hand. He also wanted the “…right hand in a position to perform its share of the work but no more than its equal share”. (Lesson 1 p24). Here again he appears more concerned about the right hand dominating rather than it being deficient.
Given equal strength in both hands, if he desired the power of three right hands he must have also desired the power of three left hands (“the left is a power hand, too.”) so that the right hand did not dominate and in order to achieve his objective, which was to “HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS.”
Well if he wanted 3 left hands he would have written that. His swing changed quite a deal after this book and probably due to an endless search for a better swing. Golf digest or some other mob offered hogan money to reveal all later on in his life but in the end he backed out apparantly due to the money reward being to little.It would seem hogan found much more after he wrote this book but its a good starting point.
Jeff, I am not sure how to upload photos on this Forum. Call me a PC laic and you won't be far from the truth if I knew how to do it from my PC collection I'd give the evidence of my way of thinking for you.
There is a ton of photos of post-accident Hogan that support what I've written (such as e.g. the photo from Jules Alexander site to which I included the link above with). Jim McLean's version from the BH Collection is not even close to the original. Please look even at the photo you put in your post - pay special attention to where the V on the right hand grip is pointing - there is a huge difference still visible (although the Hogan's photo is of bad quality).
Before-secret Hogan wanted to deliver the clubface as open as possible since he believed it could tame his hooks. It did not work, as we all know. Post-secret, and specially post-accident Hogan appeared to do a completely reverse thing (which seemed to be totally counterintuitive) - to square the clubface earlier and maintain it square as long as possible (delayed post-impact swivel and swinging left with an angled hinge); the whole question is if you are able to do it with only left arm pulling...I do not believe it is so easy and so efficient comparing to the right forearm support while swinging the club around...
You wrote-: "What I see, Hogan squared his clubface just before entering the impact zone when his right hand seem to turn into a palm down position. It can be seen when his shaft is, more or less, in parallel to the ground position."
When you state that the clubshaft is parallel to the ground, then you must surely be referring to the delivery position. You then imply that Hogan's clubface is square at this position with the right palm facing the ground. I do not see that phenomenon in Hogan's swing. Do you have a single photo showing that Hogan's clubface is square to the swingarc when his clubshaft is in the delivery position?
From my perspective, Hogan would have wanted to avoid that scenario because he had a hooking problem and he apparently wanted his clubface to be slightly open throughout the early/mid downswing. Jim McLean makes this point in his DVD series analysing Hogan's swing.
Here is a photo of Jim McLean mimicking Hogan's swing action when his clubshaft is at the delivery position.
The dotted yellow line shows that the clubface of Jim McLean's club is slightly open at this time-point. Jim Mclean stated that Hogan deliberately maintained a slight cupping of the left wrist throughout his downswing so that he could keep the clubface slightly open to the clubhead swingarc.
If the clubface was square at this time-point in the downswing, then the back of Hogan's left hand (which is parallel to the clubface) must be facing slightly groundwards. I have never seen a photo of Hogan at this time-point in his downswing with the back of his left hand facing groundwards. If anything, it always seems to face slightly skywards.
You also wrote-: "The hip turn that starts the downswing (i.e. left side of the body action - remember Hogan's image of elastic tape glued to his left hip ?) is a pulling motion that can create by itself the left wrist cock. Supposing that Hogan used his right arm/elbow/forearm/hand to support the hit, he had to convert the left wrist cock lag into a right wrist hinge lag."
I don't think that you understand Hogan's swing action from a TGM perspective. Power accumulator #2 is loaded during the backswing and that establishes the left wrist cocking angle of =>90 degrees. When the left wrist cocks up during the left arm's lifting/counterclokcwise rotation movement, the right elbow folds and the right wrist hinges back into a bent right wrist position. Therefore, the bent right wrist situation is established during the backswing. Once established, the bent right wrist is never released during the downswing, even when the right elbow straightens in the late downswing, and even when the left wrist uncocks as power accumulator #2 is released.
-- I'll put up a capsule summary ASAP that might actually mean something to the other 98 percent of the readers on this site. 
if I knew how to do it from my PC collection I'd give the evidence of my way of thinking for you.
Hybrid Mode
