Jeff, I am not sure how to upload photos on this Forum. Call me a PC laic and you won't be far from the truth if I knew how to do it from my PC collection I'd give the evidence of my way of thinking for you.
There is a ton of photos of post-accident Hogan that support what I've written (such as e.g. the photo from Jules Alexander site to which I included the link above with). Jim McLean's version from the BH Collection is not even close to the original. Please look even at the photo you put in your post - pay special attention to where the V on the right hand grip is pointing - there is a huge difference still visible (although the Hogan's photo is of bad quality).
Before-secret Hogan wanted to deliver the clubface as open as possible since he believed it could tame his hooks. It did not work, as we all know. Post-secret, and specially post-accident Hogan appeared to do a completely reverse thing (which seemed to be totally counterintuitive) - to square the clubface earlier and maintain it square as long as possible (delayed post-impact swivel and swinging left with an angled hinge); the whole question is if you are able to do it with only left arm pulling...I do not believe it is so easy and so efficient comparing to the right forearm support while swinging the club around...
Jeff, I am not sure how to upload photos on this Forum. Call me a PC laic and you won't be far from the truth if I knew how to do it from my PC collection I'd give the evidence of my way of thinking for you.
There is a ton of photos of post-accident Hogan that support what I've written (such as e.g. the photo from Jules Alexander site to which I included the link above with). Jim McLean's version from the BH Collection is not even close to the original. Please look even at the photo you put in your post - pay special attention to where the V on the right hand grip is pointing - there is a huge difference still visible (although the Hogan's photo is of bad quality).
Before-secret Hogan wanted to deliver the clubface as open as possible since he believed it could tame his hooks. It did not work, as we all know. Post-secret, and specially post-accident Hogan appeared to do a completely reverse thing (which seemed to be totally counterintuitive) - to square the clubface earlier and maintain it square as long as possible (delayed post-impact swivel and swinging left with an angled hinge); the whole question is if you are able to do it with only left arm pulling...I do not believe it is so easy and so efficient comparing to the right forearm support while swinging the club around...
Cheers
Dariusz
Great pictures and insight and just a reminder that I am sure HK states somewhere in the book That a player on Elbow Plane and a lot of no3 angle would need an earlier release point which is a possibity that Hogan figured out
and those pics hint at this.
Maybe Jeff will find that passage in the book and post it
It is very easy to link to photos so that they appear in your text message. There should be a series of formattiing choices at the top of this window, and the one choice is a mountain with a yellow colored sky. If you hover your mouse arrow above that "picture" it should state "insert image". You simply have to click on that "insert image" link and insert your url link.
If you cannot find the "extra" formatting options, got to UserCP => click on "edit options" => got to miscellaneous options at the bottom, and then choose "standard editor".
Regarding that Jules Alexander photo, it doesn't show the clubshaft at the delivery position. The clubshaft is already well into that part of the downswing called the "release swivel" phase and during this phase of the downswing, the left hand and clubface will undergo a 90 degree rotation into impact. During that 90 degree rotation phase, the back of the left hand will swivel so that it faces the target and it will also face groundwards if the golfer is hitting down on the ball. It is perfectly normal for the clubface, and back of the left hand, to be facing slightly groundwards during the release swivel phase of the downswing - and this applies to all good golfers, and not only Hogan.
I think that you would benefit greatly if you did what I did 2 months ago - become an avid student of TGM. It has changed my understanding of the golf swing in many ways, even though I still have a lot to learn. Then, you wouldn't write-: "to square the clubface earlier and maintain it square as long as possible (delayed post-impact swivel and swinging left with an angled hinge); the whole question is if you are able to do it with only left arm pulling...I do not believe it is so easy and so efficient comparing to the right forearm support while swinging the club around..." I think that you have an incomplete/ wrong conception of the golf swing. A swinger may "pull" the club longitudinally with the left arm, but the right forearm and PP#3 control the clubshaft to ensure that it is on plane during the downswing, while the left hand controls the clubface through impact. I don't believe that a golfer should ever "hold" the clubface square as long as possible. In HK's terms, that represents "steering", which is a significant mistake. The clubface should always come into impact with a slightly open clubface, and a good golfer controls its rate of closure through impact/followthrough via a hinging action, which is under the control of the back of the left hand, but biomechanically operant at the level of the left shoulder socket. Any post-impact swiveling action occurs after the followthrough phase of the swing.
Here is a post-accident photo of Hogan posing - to demonstrate how he wanted the clubface to be slightly open when it reached the delivery position.
If you have "evidence" that Hogan changed his approach to deal with his lifelong hooking problem very late in his career, then could you please i) quote Hogan stating that he deliberately chose to close the clubface earlier in his downswing; and ii) explain how an earlier clubface closure action would be a good anti-hooking strategy.
Here is link to a slo-mo swing video of Tiger Woods's swing, and you will be able to study the movement of the back of his left hand and clubface during the release swivel action.
This photo comparison shows that both Tiger and Ben had the back of their left hand facing slightly groundwards at this stage of the release swivel action (when viewed from a similar off-center camera angle) and that the clubface is not square yet to the swingarc.
I believe that the clubface must always approach the ball slightly open at the time of first ball impact in standard shots.
It is very easy to link to photos so that they appear in your text message. There should be a series of formattiing choices at the top of this window, and the one choice is a mountain with a yellow colored sky. If you hover your mouse arrow above that "picture" it should state "insert image". You simply have to click on that "insert image" link and insert your url link.
If you cannot find the "extra" formatting options, got to UserCP => click on "edit options" => got to miscellaneous options at the bottom, and then choose "standard editor".
Regarding that Jules Alexander photo, it doesn't show the clubshaft at the delivery position. The clubshaft is already well into that part of the downswing called the "release swivel" phase and during this phase of the downswing, the left hand and clubface will undergo a 90 degree rotation into impact. During that 90 degree rotation phase, the back of the left hand will swivel so that it faces the target and it will also face groundwards if the golfer is hitting down on the ball. It is perfectly normal for the clubface, and back of the left hand, to be facing slightly groundwards during the release swivel phase of the downswing - and this applies to all good golfers, and not only Hogan.
I think that you would benefit greatly if you did what I did 2 months ago - become an avid student of TGM. It has changed my understanding of the golf swing in many ways, even though I still have a lot to learn. Then, you wouldn't write-: "to square the clubface earlier and maintain it square as long as possible (delayed post-impact swivel and swinging left with an angled hinge); the whole question is if you are able to do it with only left arm pulling...I do not believe it is so easy and so efficient comparing to the right forearm support while swinging the club around..." I think that you have an incomplete/ wrong conception of the golf swing. A swinger may "pull" the club longitudinally with the left arm, but the right forearm and PP#3 control the clubshaft to ensure that it is on plane during the downswing, while the left hand controls the clubface through impact. I don't believe that a golfer should ever "hold" the clubface square as long as possible. In HK's terms, that represents "steering", which is a significant mistake. The clubface should always come into impact with a slightly open clubface, and a good golfer controls its rate of closure through impact/followthrough via a hinging action, which is under the control of the back of the left hand, but biomechanically operant at the level of the left shoulder socket. Any post-impact swiveling action occurs after the followthrough phase of the swing.
Here is a post-accident photo of Hogan posing - to demonstrate how he wanted the clubface to be slightly open when it reached the delivery position.
If you have "evidence" that Hogan changed his approach to deal with his lifelong hooking problem very late in his career, then could you please i) quote Hogan stating that he deliberately chose to close the clubface earlier in his downswing; and ii) explain how an earlier clubface closure action would be a good anti-hooking strategy.
Jeff.
Jeff, thanks for helping me with uploading photos possibility, however, I still do not know how to upload a photo from my PC (I do not want to upload using URLs since I do not possess a web site with already uploaded photos). But never mind...
I am not going to debate with you or any of the Forum members in a TGM language since my knowledge is very limited so far.
Neverteless, I can easily answer your 2 questions using ordinary terms:
i) quote Hogan stating that he deliberately chose to close the clubface earlier in his downswing
I cannot do it since I believe it is one of the important puzzles of Hogan's secret that he did not want to reveal to anyone.
ii) explain how an earlier clubface closure action would be a good anti-hooking strategy
It's very easy. In case of pivot guided swings the most efficient motion is to subdue the clubface movement to the body turn; when your clubface is already square to the arc before entering the impact zone no further action is taken in order to close the clubface, because your brain already knows it is square; you, as a Doc, should know much better than me that everything happens in our brain - if your brain "sees" the clubface as closed and, simultaneously, your brain "wants" to hit the ball straight, it won't allow your hands to close the clubface and will force them to be completely passive during the impact zone.
Do an experiment yourself - address the ball with a severely closed clubface with an attempt to hit the ball straight forward - you will see how hard (or even impossible) is to hook the ball in such a scenario. What will happen is that you subconsciousnessly hit the ball with a more open clubface that it was at address and most likely (depending on your swing characteristic) you'll obtain a fade pattern. No CP, CF or other forces will be ever able to overcome your subconsciousness.
I think that Hogan discovered this phenomenon and he gave us some clues while saying: "if you think that a given thing in your swing will help you - do exactly opposite thing and you'll obtain what you want
Cheers
P.S. the comparison between Hogan and Woods on those 2 pics of yours is wrong - first, the angles are different, second, they are not in the same moment of the swing. Lastly, look carefully at Hogan's clubface - it is square to the arc already (the whole face of the club is visible).
You offer two arguments that are particularly weak, and these arguments come up all the time when people comment on Hogan's swing.
You wrote-: "You also said you have never found any "secrets" of Hogan to be convincingly true - how can you say this if you neglect digging in the dirt yourself ? how can you say that the Yellow Book is the best way to understand what principles Hogan used to be the best ballstriker in history of the game since, as I told you, noone of TGM students could ever duplicate or be close to Hogan's overhuman accuracy and consistency ?"
This "digging in the dirt" argument is woefuly weak because you have no idea how much time I spend "digging in the dirt" in an attempt to understand the golf swing. By the way, despite spending endless hours "digging in the dirt", I can never personally hope to become a good golfer because I have too many physical handicaps/limitations. Hogan, although an extraordinary talented golfer, was also a mortal golfer who based his swing on many golf fundamentals/principles. Those same principles are present in many other golfers' swings. They can be studied and understood by a person like HK. However, even a perfect understanding of golf swing fundamentals cannot create an "expert" golfer, like Hogan. It requires, in addition, an inherent "gift" for executing the golf swing. The same fact applies to other sports. Roger Federer may be the greatest tennis player that has ever played the game of tennis, but that doesn't mean that one cannot study and understand the tennis principles/fundamentals that form the underlying framework of his tennis skills. I have read an endless number of golf instructional books, but none of them equals the TGM book with regards to the critically important criterion of having at its "core" a fundamentally sound scientific approach.
We certainly have a very different perspective on golf mechanics, physics and biomechanics.
You wrote-: "Do an experiment yourself - address the ball with a severely closed clubface with an attempt to hit the ball straight forward - you will see how hard (or even impossible) is to hook the ball in such a scenario. What will happen is that you subconsciousnessly hit the ball with a more open clubface that it was at address and most likely (depending on your swing characteristic) you'll obtain a fade pattern. No CP, CF or other forces will be ever able to overcome your subconsciousness."
You claim, amazingly, that a golfer will likely fade a ball if he addresses the ball with a severely closed clubface, because you believe that the subconscious mind will overcome CF, or other biomechanical forces, that predispose to hitting the ball left if the clubface is severely closed at address. I personally don't believe that it will happen, and if it does happen, then the golfer has to markedly intefere with the natural release swivel action. Normally, the back of the left hand and clubface swivels 90 degrees when the club moves from the delivery position to the impact position. During this time period, the left wrist is also completely uncocking as power accumulator #2 fully releases. You are essentially recommending that a golfer's subconscious mind needs to interfere with this natural release swivel phenomenon, that is happening very fast in the late downswing, so that the golfer can prevent the closed clubface from closing too fast during the release swivel action. Phew! I have heard of recommended measures to prevent the ball going left, but this particular recommendation is far beyond the outer limits of my understanding of golf mechanics. If Hogan really harbored this belief, then I am not surprised that Hogan would have tried not to reveal this idea to anyone!
I will resist the opportunity to formally request that you answer the obvious follow-up question - how does the subconscious mind get the arms/hands to interfere with the natural release swivel action in a controllable/repeatable manner.
if I knew how to do it from my PC collection I'd give the evidence of my way of thinking for you.
Hybrid Mode
