DG- you wrote-: "That post is TOTAL BS. No way does the swing with the right arm action that Tom Tomasello taught create a throw-away condition like that..."
I never inferred that it did. I merely stated that if a swinger uses a standard 4:2:3 swing pattern that there is a danger to adding right arm push-power at some point in the mid-late downswing. I stated that if one added a very active right elbow straightening action in the late downswing it could push the hands through the impact zone too fast and not provide sufficient time for a complete release of PA#3. I also stated that if one added right arm push-power via a right wrist unbending action in the late downswing it could produce flipping. I wasn't talking about TT's right arm throw action, which is a swing style where the right arm throw starts from the top.
You also stated-: "Homer considered it a viable option, I have nothing to do with it. The detailed explanation is already in the book, it's under section 7-3."
I have read 7-3. I can see no description of TT's right arm throw action in that section. Section 7-3 first deals with the relationship of the right forearm to the left arm flying wedge package in swinger's (arc of approach style) and hitters (angle of approach style) at the top of the swing. In the second half of that section HK talks of the position of the right forearm in the late downswing (whether driven or thrown) and he states-: "ALWAYS for all procedures, the Right Forearm is positioned "On Plane" - pointing at the plane line as the angle of attack. ------- The "Angle of Approach" position of the Right Forearm shows the precise Cross-Line direction the Forearm must take through Impact."
In other words, HK was merely describing the right forearm in relationship to the standard (4:2:3) swinger's action (where the right forearm is thrown) and a standard hitting action (where the right forearm is driven). I cannot identify a description of TT's "right arm throw" action in that section.
I have personally made an attempt to describe TT's "right arm throw" action in TGM terms. I first described it as a triple barrel 1:2:3 swing action. However, Yoda stated that I was incorrect because the "1" should be reserved for a hitting action where the right arm powers the clubshaft through impact via PP#3. TT wasn't describing a hitting action, but a swinging action. I therefore modified my description and called it a RAPF4:2:3 swing action. You are free to state whether you think that my description is right or wrong, and you are free to provide your personal perspective using TGM terminology (describing TT's "right arm throw" action in terms of the loading and release of power accumulators).
DG- you wrote-: "That post is TOTAL BS. No way does the swing with the right arm action that Tom Tomasello taught create a throw-away condition like that..."
I never inferred that it did. I merely stated that if a swinger uses a standard 4:2:3 swing pattern that there is a danger to adding right arm push-power at some point in the mid-late downswing. I stated that if one added a very active right elbow straightening action in the late downswing it could push the hands through the impact zone too fast and not provide sufficient time for a complete release of PA#3. I also stated that if one added right arm push-power via a right wrist unbending action in the late downswing it could produce flipping. I wasn't talking about TT's right arm throw action, which is a swing style where the right arm throw starts from the top.
You also stated-: "Homer considered it a viable option, I have nothing to do with it. The detailed explanation is already in the book, it's under section 7-3."
I have read 7-3. I can see no description of TT's right arm throw action in that section. Section 7-3 first deals with the relationship of the right forearm to the left arm flying wedge package in swinger's (arc of approach style) and hitters (angle of approach style) at the top of the swing. In the second half of that section HK talks of the position of the right forearm in the late downswing (whether driven or thrown) and he states-: "ALWAYS for all procedures, the Right Forearm is positioned "On Plane" - pointing at the plane line as the angle of attack. ------- The "Angle of Approach" position of the Right Forearm shows the precise Cross-Line direction the Forearm must take through Impact."
In other words, HK was merely describing the right forearm in relationship to the standard (4:2:3) swinger's action (where the right forearm is thrown) and a standard hitting action (where the right forearm is driven). I cannot identify a description of TT's "right arm throw" action in that section.
I have personally made an attempt to describe TT's "right arm throw" action in TGM terms. I first described it as a triple barrel 1:2:3 swing action. However, Yoda stated that I was incorrect because the "1" should be reserved for a hitting action where the right arm powers the clubshaft through impact via PP#3. TT wasn't describing a hitting action, but a swinging action. I therefore modified my description and called it a RAPF4:2:3 swing action. You are free to state whether you think that my description is right or wrong, and you are free to provide your personal perspective using TGM terminology (describing TT's "right arm throw" action in terms of the loading and release of power accumulators).
Jeff.
Jeff,
I'm sorry you're not catching on....it's in there. Between the videos, the interview, TGM text....it's all there.
I have personally made an attempt to describe TT's "right arm throw" action in TGM terms. I first described it as a triple barrel 1:2:3 swing action. However, Yoda stated that I was incorrect because the "1" should be reserved for a hitting action where the right arm powers the clubshaft through impact via PP#3. TT wasn't describing a hitting action, but a swinging action. I therefore modified my description and called it a RAPF4:2:3 swing action.
Jeff,
Thank you for all you are doing to shine the brightest light on Homer Kelley's The Golfing Machine. After some thirty years of study, I welcome your posts and know that the work itself can withstand relentless scientific scrutiny. Moreover, the Golf World has just now become empowered with a variety of scientific tools, e.g., launch monitors, that prove just how right Homer Kelley really was.
Now a question:
Do you have the Third Edition?
I ask this because, in the Third Edition, the first three (of six) Sample Stroke Patterns are relevant to your posts. Specifically, these three offer examples of One, Two and Three Accumulator Patterns, all of which employ the 1-2-3 Triple Barrel Stroke (Component #4) and the Right Arm Throw Trigger (Component #20) you earlier espoused.
With, I might add, a inconcongruence of Grip Type and Hinge Action with the later Basic Stroke Patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 in Editions 4-7. Specifically, in the Two Accumulator Pivot Stroke (12-2-0): the Strong Double Action Grip (10-2-D) and its Angled Hinge Action (10-10-C). And, in the One and Three Accumulator Strokes (12-1-0 and 12-3-0): the Right Arm Trigger coupled with Dual Horizontal Hinge Action.
Each of which is entirely consistent with Homer's original intent, i.e., "To present the solution as a Right Arm approach to the whole game" (1-F / Editions 1-3).
Anyway, this whole argument hangs on three or four sentences across the decades.
Lets take the time on this thread to get it right.
Yoda - I am very new to TGM and I only have the 7th edition.
It would be very nice if you (or someone) could post the relevant section of the 3rd edition so that I can understand what you are talking about.
You also wrote-: "With, I might add, an incongruence of Grip Type and Hinge Action with the later Basic Stroke Patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 in Editions 4-7. Specifically, in the Two Accumulator Pivot Stroke (12-2-0): the Strong Double Action Grip (10-2-D) and its Angled Hinge Action (10-10-C). And, in the One and Three Accumulator Strokes (12-1-0 and 12-3-0): the Right Arm Trigger coupled with Dual Horizontal Hinge Action."
Those sentences are well beyond my limited level of TGM understanding. I eagerly await further elucidatory/explanatory posts. The study of TGM is a fascinating endeavour and I have a lot to learn!
Those sentences are well beyond my limited level of TGM understanding. I eagerly await further elucidatory/explanatory posts. The study of TGM is a fascinating endeavour and I have a lot to learn!
Thank you for all you are doing to shine the brightest light on Homer Kelley's The Golfing Machine. After some thirty years of study, I welcome your posts and know that the work itself can withstand relentless scientific scrutiny. Moreover, the Golf World has just now become empowered with a variety of scientific tools, e.g., launch monitors, that prove just how right Homer Kelley really was.
Now a question:
Do you have the Third Edition?
I ask this because, in the Third Edition, the first three (of six) Sample Stroke Patterns are relevant to your posts. Specifically, these three offer examples of One, Two and Three Accumulator Patterns, all of which employ the 1-2-3 Triple Barrel Stroke (Component #4) and the Right Arm Throw Trigger (Component #20) you earlier espoused.
With, I might add, an incongruence of Grip Type and Hinge Action with the later Basic Stroke Patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 in Editions 4-7. Specifically, in the Two Accumulator Pivot Stroke (12-2-0); the Strong Double Action Grip (10-2-D); its Angled Hinge Action (10-10-C); and the Dual Horizontal Hinge Action of 12-1-0 and 12-3-0.
Each of which is entirely consistent with Homer's original intent, i.e., "To present the solution as a Right Arm approach to the whole game" (1-F / Editions 1-3).
Anyway, this whole argument hangs on three or four sentences across the decades.
Lets take the time on this thread to get it right.
I'll do my part.
Yoda,
Thanks for bringing up Homer's original intent...."To present the solution as a Right Arm approach to the whole game". I believe that's what Tom Tomasello did in his instruction and presentation of The Golfing Machine." It totally makes sense...once you reduce variation in the system, quality goes up. I'm surprised the TGM community will not give Tommy any credit for the original intent...it's a damn shame. Is it because nobody made the connection???
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 11-23-2008 at 11:23 PM.
Hybrid Mode
