Mike wrote-: "The point is that some "forearm" muscles are able to flex the forearm and some forearm muscles are able to extend the forearm. Those are the muscles that cross the elbow joint."
Mike is correct and I applaud his questioning comments. I shouldn't have been so didactic by making a general overarching statement about forearm muscles that is only generally true, but not absolutely true. I therefore need to qualify my statements with a more detailed explanation, which is always a good thing, because it promotes a better (more accurate) understanding.
Theoretically, it can be said that any foreram muscle that has its origin (or part of its origin) above the elbow joint can assist in flexion or extension of the elbow joint depending on its position and muscle bulk - even though that forearm muscle may have another primary function (moving more distal joints).
I have therefore produced two photos.
The photos are too large to embed in this message, so I will provide links.
Take for example the aconeus muscle. It has its origin above the elbow joint and its insertion below the elbow joint. In that sense, it can be perceived to be an elbow extensor muscle. However, it is a comparatively tiny muscle relative to the triceps muscle and plays very little role in active elbow extension.
The same applies to the brachioradialis muscle. It has its origin above the elbow joint and its insertion near the wrist. It can definitely flex the elbow joint, but considering its relatively small bulk (compared to the biceps and brachialis muscles) and its far insertion point (which decreases leverage) it plays a far smaller role in elbow flexion that the upper arm muscles (biceps and brachialis muscles) which have great leverage because of their proximal forearm insertion points. Its main role is to produce a neutral forearm position when the forearm is extended in a non-neutral position (either supination or pronation) and the forearm is then flexed to a neutral position. It helps in rotating the forearm to a neutral position while assisting the biceps muscle in flexing the elbow.
Yodas Luke suggested that extensor digitorum and extensor carpi ulnaris may assist in elbow extension. I don't think that's correct and the photos show why I disagree - note that the extensor carpi ulnaris and extensor digitorum muscles actually arise from an origin below the elbow joint and its only their common extensor tendon that is attached to the humerus just above the elbow joint (at the lateral humeral epicondyle). They have very little leverage in extending the elbow joint - compared to the triceps muscle.
The extensor muscle that has its origin above the elbow joint is the long head of extensor carpi radialis, but its position and small bulk suggests that it has little role to play in elbow extension.
Look at the sheer size of the triceps muscle and the triceps tendon, and consider its advantageous point of insertion. You can then see why its the dominant muscle in elbow extension.
Jeff.
Well said Jeff- No problem from here. Although I kind of liked it when you finished with "If anyone disagrees with my opinion please comment"
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Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
This thread is dead, time to put it to bed, enough has been said, everything has been read.
Mikey, take your medicine before Bucket brings his left over Halloween candy.
Party Pooper! Joy Killer! What's with you - Bucket and I - just starting to have some fun and you have to call the thread dead?! Do me a favor -record your poetic post on a cassette player "This thread is dead, time to put it to bed, enough has been said, everything has been read" and then play it backwards - you'll hear the hidden message - something about Bucket, Mike O. arriving at your range and giving you a Wedgy and Woody- the signal's a little weak and it is difficult to decipher-! Where is my Medicine!!
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Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
"I think the high state of martial art, in application, must have no absolute form. And, to tackle pattern A with pattern B may not be absolutely correct."
"Some people are tall; some are short. Some are stout; some are slim. There are various different kinds of people. If all of them learn the same martial art form, then who does it fit?"
"True observation begins when one is devoid of set patterns."
"Be water my friend..."
Quoted from Bruce Lee...
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If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
We better get one of them forum sherrif types over here soon before they start dropping like flies. Yo Belle Starr can you please ban Mikey from posting in this forum . . . LBG may have some liability issues.[/QUOT
It's way too entertaining when MikeO open his posts with comments like, "I'm not interested in getting involved in the debate" and then proceed to write one of his unibomber manifesto's. Besides, he's is also a self proclaimed computer hack, so I'm just waiting for him to ban himself.
If you just would bump my posting total from 953 to 1000 - then I wouldn't need to post all these ridiculous posts!!!
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
Please subtract 953 posts from Mike's account for being off his meds.
__________________ Hitting the Ball is the easiest part of the game-hitting it effectively is the most difficult. Why trust instinct when there is a science."1-G.
"I think the high state of martial art, in application, must have no absolute form. And, to tackle pattern A with pattern B may not be absolutely correct."
"Some people are tall; some are short. Some are stout; some are slim. There are various different kinds of people. If all of them learn the same martial art form, then who does it fit?"
"True observation begins when one is devoid of set patterns."
"Be water my friend..."
Quoted from Bruce Lee...
Good Point Grasshopper - but to get to no absolute form one must first think and learn all forms- only then Grasshopper - can one own the free flight. As Bruce Lee did. "The view along the way to the top is different than the view from the top"- Mike O. 2008
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
When you can take the golf ball from my hand it will be time for you to go.
__________________ Hitting the Ball is the easiest part of the game-hitting it effectively is the most difficult. Why trust instinct when there is a science."1-G.
Good Point Grasshopper - but to get to no absolute form one must first think and learn all forms- only then Grasshopper - can one own the free flight. As Bruce Lee did. "The view along the way to the top is different than the view from the top"- Mike O. 2008
Of course...I supposed all masters here already mastered a certain forms...
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If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
B. J. Hathaway, G.S.E.B., M.C.I.
Linear Mode
