You wrote-: "Jeff is there a frame between the address and the top? I think he pushes his hips right and then they go left early back to his original address waste bend giving the impression that he baked a lil' pie at the top. When his backfield has really reversed field."
There are many missing frames. Hogan definitely moves his pelvis left-laterally during the late backswing (when his club is still moving backwards).
I am not sure why Yoda wanted to discuss Hogan's move. He may have a particular point that he wants to make.
Jeff.
p.s. As a side-issue, Yoda states in his Alignment Golf DVD that one should center the head between the feet at address, and then acquire rightwards spinal tilt by shifting the pelvis left-laterally. Hogan doesn't do that - you can see that his head is behind the center of his stance at address. He also moves his head ahead of that center line during the downswing.
Side issue . . . again . . . . that is one swing . . . and a driver in particular. You can watch the Hogan vs. Snead Shell deal. Hogan makes a different looking swing with the driver than with the irons. I pretty much sets up "on top of it" with the irons and stays there. I watched the "grid" swing too. The head does move some . . . but not a whole lot. Homer said steady head, not motionless.
I watched the "grid" swing too. The head does move some . . . but not a whole lot.
In this "Hell bent for leather" stroke, with maximum Pivot Participation and Arm Swing, the back of Ben Hogan's head never leaves the vertical grid line. It correctly swivels (per 1-L #2), and it Bobs a smidgeon, but it nonetheless remains anchored to the grid.
Put up a handicap golfer -- or even a TOUR player or three (past and present) -- and let's see how they do on the 'grid' test.
Now, the surveyor gets out his transit, measures off against his control points, and says "Ben set his head 1.1263 inches to the right of center at address and then moved it to .34 inches ahead of center at impact." I say, fine. Does that mean I should teach my students to set their heads 1.1263 inches to the right of center at address and move it .34 inches ahead at impact?
Please.
Students need to learn the correct Pivot -- the correct circular motion of the Body -- and the correct Action of its Components (Feet, Knees, Hips and Shoulders) . . . not how to move the Head back and forth one inch.
Learn to Pivot, guys. And learn to keep your Head still while you're doing it. Picture the spinning skater and Center your arc. Make it the subconscious lynch pin of your Stroke, and introduce a new consistency to your game.
Yoda - I agree with everything you say in post #27.
I personally like your idea of keeping the head centralised between the stance at address, and then shifting the pelvis slightly leftwards to get slight right spinal tilt. However, I have noticed that many PGA tour players prefer to have their head slightly behind the center of their stance at address.
I agree that they generally all have very stationary heads, except for slight head swivelling.
Thanks for these sequences. We all do better when we can actually see these principles in action, and your skills in this area are a wonderful contribution to the educational mission of our site.
A question regarding your sequence of Stuart Appleby:
In Photos #1 and #3, my guess is that the yellow line represents the spine and its inclined angle to the ground ("axis tilt"). But what does the line in Photo #2 represent . . . the original angle per Photo #1? Thanks.
In this "Hell bent for leather" stroke, with maximum Pivot Participation and Arm Swing, the back of Ben Hogan's head never leaves the vertical grid line. It correctly swivels (per 1-L #2), and it Bobs a smidgeon, but it nonetheless remains anchored to the grid.
Put up a handicap golfer -- or even a TOUR player or three (past and present) -- and let's see how they do on the 'grid' test.
Now, the surveyor gets out his transit, measures off against his control points, and says "Ben set his head 1.1263 inches to the right of center at address and then moved it to .34 inches ahead of center at impact." I say, fine. Does that mean I should teach my students to set their heads 1.1263 inches to the right of center at address and move it .34 inches ahead at impact?
Please.
Students need to learn the correct Pivot -- the correct circular motion of the Body -- and the correct Action of its Components (Feet, Knees, Hips and Shoulders) . . . not how to move the Head back and forth one inch.
Learn to Pivot, guys. And learn to keep your Head still while you're doing it. Picture the spinning skater and Center your arc. Make it the subconscious lynch pin of your Stroke, and introduce a new consistency to your game.
Is that a good one?
__________________
If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
Students need to learn the correct Pivot -- the correct circular motion of the Body -- and the correct Action of its Components (Feet, Knees, Hips and Shoulders) . . . not how to move the Head back and forth one inch.
Learn to Pivot, guys. And learn to keep your Head still while you're doing it. Picture the spinning skater and Center your arc. Make it the subconscious lynch pin of your Stroke, and introduce a new consistency to your game.
Yoda,
When you teach your students the correct pivot, do you than teach them the pivot while they at the same time are aware of their hands or can you teach the pivot separately of the hands?
Thanks
Yoda,
When you teach your students the correct pivot, do you than teach them the pivot while they at the same time are aware of their hands or can you teach the pivot separately of the hands?
Thanks
However, I always coordinate this training with the On Plane assignments of the Hands, using a series of drills that emphasize Clubshaft alignments with the Plane Line.
Yoda - the yellow lines represent the spinal tilt angle.
The yellow line in photo 2 is only an approximation because I believe that it is impossible to accurately represent the spine position when the golfer is at the end-backswing position - when viewing the golfer from a face-on view. At the end-backswing, the pelvis has rotated about 45 degrees and the shoulders about 90 degrees. That causes the spine to twist in a spiral manner, so it is impossible to draw a single line as being accurately representative of the degree of spinal tilt (of a spiral structure).
I draw my "approximate spine line" as follows. I know that the pelvis rotates 45 degrees in the backswing which shifts the lowest lumbar vertebra to the left. I then start the bottom of my line just left of center (approximately where I think the L5 vertebra is located). I then look for a point at the base of the neck where I imagine the C7 vertebra is located (which is near the blue dot = upper swing center between the shoulder blades), and I draw a straight line between those two points.
Yoda - the yellow lines represent the spinal tilt angle.
The yellow line in photo 2 is only an approximation because I believe that it is impossible to accurately represent the spine position when the golfer is at the end-backswing position - when viewing the golfer from a face-on view. At the end-backswing, the pelvis has rotated about 45 degrees and the shoulders about 90 degrees. That causes the spine to twist in a spiral manner, so it is impossible to draw a single line as being accurately representative of the degree of spinal tilt (of a spiral structure).
I draw my "approximate spine line" as follows. I know that the pelvis rotates 45 degrees in the backswing which shifts the lowest lumbar vertebra to the left. I then start the bottom of my line just left of center (approximately where I think the L5 vertebra is located). I then look for a point at the base of the neck where I imagine the C7 vertebra is located (which is near the blue dot = upper swing center between the shoulder blades), and I draw a straight line between those two points.
Jeff,
I respect your scientific and biomechanically-based methodolgy, but . . .
I also trust you and your innate sense of movement!
Please gimme a Jeff's freehand approximation of the "spiraled" -- I agree with and love this description! -- spine angle. With all due respect to any perceived straight-line relationship between L5 and C7, just let it go, and let's see what we get. [Can we use the color red? I like red!] Then, let's compare that rendering to the yellow line.
FWIW, it appears to me that the Head has remained within its 'box' during the Backstroke and that the Hips have Shifted decidedly to the right (we now can see a pine tree!). And that means -- according to my own theoretical 'grandfather clock' model expressed above -- that the lower spine tilts ever so slightly 'away' from the target on the Backstroke, not 'toward' it.
Hybrid Mode
