First time trying to attach photos so hopefully this will work.
Jeff, I am no LD expert, just a humble amateur. These pictures of me were taken in October 2008 by GolfGuru. I think they were taken up around the shutter speed you wanted on his Casio F1 camera that can take bursts at up to 1200 fps I believe.
Bugger, not sure I uploaded them. Idiots guide please?
Attached Thumbnails:
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Regarding getting a frame at impact - I was just pointing to the one issue (especially seen when taking a divot) where the clubhead slows during impact and the shaft bends back - once the ball leaps off the face - the clubshaft springs forward.
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Regarding getting a frame at impact - I was just pointing to the one issue (especially seen when taking a divot) where the clubhead slows during impact and the shaft bends back - once the ball leaps off the face - the clubshaft springs forward.
Yes, of course. The divot/clubhead collision vs the tee'd ball/clubhead collision. One causing more shaft deflection than the other.
First time trying to attach photos so hopefully this will work.
Jeff, I am no LD expert, just a humble amateur. These pictures of me were taken in October 2008 by GolfGuru. I think they were taken up around the shutter speed you wanted on his Casio F1 camera that can take bursts at up to 1200 fps I believe.
If he's got the F1 then the still bursts are up to 60 frames per second. High speed movies on the other hand can make it to 1,200 fps. Although here I think fps stands for "fields per second". Apples and oranges. Film movie cameras would still be "frames per second" having a mechanical shutter and a true film frame
My Casio FH20 has a burst of still photos up to 40 fps which are far clearer than 280 fps in digital movie mode for some reason. No shaft blur what so ever. (The faster fps movie settings require a ton of light and are smaller files, despite the blur I find 280 to be the best rate.)
And yes in burst mode the shaft looks like a very in focus bent snake while in movie mode it seems a rather straightish looking blur. This when regarding the same person doing the same shot one after the other.
If this shaft deflection is an anomaly of high speed still photography then Hogan might have been wrong to change shafts after reviewing his photos for Power Golf. Ill let the sharpness of the focused still bursts rule and chose to think that Mr Hogan and Mr Kelley had it right. The shaft is a snake.
My Casio FH20 has a burst of still photos up to 40 fps which are far clearer than 280 fps in digital movie mode for some reason. No shaft blur what so ever. (The faster fps movie settings require a ton of light and are smaller files, despite the blur I find 280 to be the best rate.)
And yes in burst mode the shaft looks like a very in focus bent snake while in movie mode it seems a rather straightish looking blur. This when regarding the same person doing the same shot one after the other.
If this shaft deflection is an anomaly of high speed still photography then Hogan might have been wrong to change shafts after reviewing his photos for Power Golf. Ill let the sharpness of the focused still bursts rule and chose to think that Mr Hogan and Mr Kelley had it right. The shaft is a snake.
Here are four photos O.B. Left took at Cuscowilla in our private sessions last month. They illustrate his points . . . and mine. Also, they give insight into the 'Shaft Bend' questions Mike O. asked above. FYI, these are Stiff shafts -- not Super Stiff or Tipped -- but they are Stiff (and not of the 'Super Senior' variety ) .
Downstroke
Release
During Release
Impact Interval
Readers who wish to enlarge can click on the thumbnails below. Left click and use the 'pg up' and 'pg down' keys to navigate between the photos.
In your series of photos, I can see a phenomenon that I have seem many times previously. Before release, the clubshaft is bent backwards and after release the clubshaft is bent forward.
The question becomes - how does one interpret this phenomenon. I personally believe that there is a shaft flexibility issue and a shaft elastic recoil issue in play that disrupts the 100% irefutable causal relationship between the hand thrust action (cause) and the clubhead's sweetspot movement in space (effect). I can picture an S-shaped clubshaft that is 100% rigid, where one can essentially ignore the strange snake-like shape of the clubshaft, and where there is still a 100% correlation between hand thrust forces (cause) and the clubhead's movement in space (effect). However, when a shaft becomes increasingly flexible then I believe that there can be a time-lag phenomenon where hand thrust forces do not have an immediate effect on the clubhead and where one cannot simply imply that a straight line drawn between the hands and the clubface sweetspot at any time point in the downswing accurately represents the reality between "cause" (hand thrust forces) and "effect" (movement of the clubhead's sweetspot in space).
I watched Jason Zuback give an exhibition as a long-drive competitor and as a trick shot artist. He had a special ultra-flexible shaft that could bend into a C-shape. When he swung with that rope-like club he could hit the ball >250 yards - but only if his timing was perfect. He had to get the rope-like clubshaft to become straight at impact - so that the clubhead became like a flying object perfectly timed into impact. However, during the downswing, the clubhead was lagging behind his hands by a variable amount that varied considerably from swing-to-swing, and therefore there was no clearcut relationship between effort and effect (clubhead's sweetspot movement in space) until impact.
Jeff.
Last edited by Jeff : 12-18-2008 at 10:33 PM.
Reason: add last paragraph
In your series of photos, I can see a phenomenon that I have seem many times previously. Before release, the clubshaft is bent backwards and after release the clubshaft is bent forward.
The question becomes - how does one interpret this phenomenon.
Jeff,
As I've already explained twice in this thread, the Clubshaft is responding to the Sweetspot's Centrifugal Line of Pull. It is NOT creating it (as you continue to insist). In fact, this 'bass-ackwards' thinking is your fundamental error.
The Sweetspot is orbiting, and in so doing, is creating a Centrifugal Force (Clubhead Inertia resisting a change in its direction). The Clubshaft is supplying the Centripetal Force that enables that orbit.
In performing its function, the Clubshaft is stressed at the Top (Lag Loading / 7-19). This is the true Clubhead Lag, i.e., the Sweetspot seeking to maintain its in-line condition with the Pressure Point Pressure and thereby creating Shaft Stress. It is no less than the Secret of Golf (6-C-2-0/A). Ideally, this Stress is never 'Released'.
[And while I'm here: This Shaft Stress is notAccumulator Lag, i.e., the out-of-line condition of the Left Arm and Clubshaft -- that you misidentified as Clubhead Lag by reference to Photo #1 in your post #118 -- which is Released. ]
Where was I? Oh yes . . .
Centrifugal Force (Swinging) or Muscular Thrust (Hitting) is driving the Clubhead.
Not the Clubshaft.
I am not saying that Clubshaft properties -- materials, flex, etc. -- are not important. They are. But, not in the ways so often promoted. And . . .
Not in the way described by you.
BTW, you state that you see in my photos a "phenomenon that [you] have seen many times previously. Before release, the clubshaft is bent backwards and after release the clubshaft is bent forward." Question: How do you explain "The Snake" (Photo #4 in my post #127 above), where "after release", the Shaft simultaneously is bent both backwards and forwards?
Please include the photo in your reply, and for the visually-challenged among us, please trace the Shaft with a yellow line. Thanks!
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"As I've already explained twice in this thread, the Clubshaft is responding to the Sweetspot's Centrifugal Line of Pull. It is NOT creating it (as you continue to insist). In fact, this 'bass-ackwards' thinking is your fundamental error.
The Sweetspot is orbiting, and in so doing, is creating a Centrifugal Force (Clubhead Inertia resisting a change in its direction). The Clubshaft is supplying the Centripetal Force that enables that orbit."
I appreciate your input, but I have a different explanation for observed events.
I agree that the clubshaft is not creating the centrifugal line of pull. (The clubshaft is creating another force - which I will explain later).
I think that you are wrong to state the clubshaft is supplying the centripetal force. The CP force is created by the hands holding the clubshaft, and the clubshaft is simply the connecting structure between the clubhead and the hands.
Here is my explanation. I created this model.
Imagine that a person is twirling a ball (attached to a piece of string) around his head. Imagine that he grasps the string between his right index finger and his thumb in a pincer grip and imagine that he holds his right hand vertically above his head and moves his right hand in a constant small circular motion. That circular motion is represented by the small inner circle.
Imagine that the string length is 18" and the red ball is attached to the end of the string.
The ball will travel in a constant circular path (represented by positions 1 and 2 and 3). The CP pull is exerted by the hands and the pull is along the length of the string and the CP force is at right angles to the ball position (right angles to a tangent at the circumference) at any point in time. The ball wants to travel in a straight line (at a 90 degree tangent to the circumference of the circle) at every moment in time, but it is prevented from that action by the CP force that is directed towards the center of the circle. The string transmits the CP pulling force from the ball to the hands (inwards pull towards the center). The string doesn't create the CP force. The ball travels in a perfect circular motion because the CP force (directed inwards towards the center via the string) balances the CF force (hypothetical outward -directed force).
Now consider placing a 6" long rigid structural object (that could be made of metal or rigid plastic) between the ball and the hands. The string length would now be reduced to 12" and it would be attached to the central end of that 6" structure which has a snake-like shape. The presence of that rigid structure, and its snake-like shape, would have no effect on the ball's path in space. The ball would continue to travel in a circle (position 4) and its motion would only be dictated by the CP force exerted by the right hand's circular twirling motion. The 6" structural unit would have no effect on the ball's path of motion - despite its snake-like shape.
Now consider what one would have to infer if the ball suddenly appeared at position 5 or 6 - where the ball is no longer on its circular path. One would have to infer that another force is at play that affected the ball's "expected" position.
That is what I believe is happening in those photographs. I believe that there is a CP force exerted by the hands on the grip end of the club. However, I believe that there is another force (derived from the flexible clubshaft's elastic properties) that kicks the clubhead off its CP-induced orbit. In other words, when I look at Jamie Sadlowski's clubhead post-impact in this next photograph - I believe that the clubshaft's flexibility (elastic properties) is causing a displacement of the clubhead off its "expected' orbit ("expected" in the sense of the clubhead only being propelled by the CP force passing through the clubshaft from the hands-to-the-clubhead).
If the clubhead was in that position only due to the CP force, then a straight line drawn between the hands and the sweetspot should be perpendicular to a tangent line drawn at the clubhead's position on its circular orbit. However, that straight line is not perpendicular to the clubhead's circular orbit in space. I think that the clubhead is equivalent to being at position 6 in my orbiting ball-on-a-string model.
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