"Let's make the geometry simple, if anyone else is going to learn anything. And, we'll consider the center of the circle the left shoulder, since it's the top of the radius. Let's call the left shoulder "A". We'll call the hands "B" and the clubhead "C".
Scenario #1, Hands:
If the distance between "A" and "B" remains somewhat constant (Extensor Action), "B" should inscribe a circle on a piece of paper, like a compass. If we complicate it by letting "A" move (like the golf stroke), the circle becomes somewhat elliptical."
In your mind, the hand arc's 3-D movement in space should be dominated by the movement of B in a circular rotational arc around the axis point of A, which theoretically should produce a circular hand arc. However, you are minimizing the importance of the independent movement of A as significantly affecting the shape of the hand arc - when you write "somewhat elliptical". The reality is that the independent movement of A dominates the early downswing.
In the early downswing, the pelvis shift movement pulls the power package assembly intact all the way down to waist level - without significant separation of the left arm from the chest wall (PA#4 remains loaded). That means that there is no rotational movement of B around the axis point of A, and most of the hand movement in space is due to the movement of the left shoulder socket (A).
You can see that phenomenon is Ben Hogan's swing here.
Look at how much Hogan's hands move down in the early downswing - without any rotational movement of B around the axis point of A as a result of the release of PA#4. The loaded/intact left arm flying wedge's relationship to the left shoulder socket remains unchanged until the hands reach waist level, and it is only then that PA#4 releases allowing B to rotate around the axis point of A in a circular fashion.
The same phenomenon can see in this bird's eye view series of images.
Note that the left arm-shoulder angle remains roughly the same during the early downswing (I incorrectly placed the apex of that wedge in image 1 which makes the angle look wider) - until the hands get down to waist level.
That means that the first part of the hand arc (in the early downswing) essentially doesn't involve any rotational movement of B around the axis point of A (due to the release of pA#4), and is mainly due to the independent movement of A. That's why the hand arc is generally U-shaped, and not circular.
Jeff.
Last edited by Jeff : 12-23-2008 at 11:56 PM.
Reason: added clarifying comments
"Let's make the geometry simple, if anyone else is going to learn anything. And, we'll consider the center of the circle the left shoulder, since it's the top of the radius. Let's call the left shoulder "A". We'll call the hands "B" and the clubhead "C".
Scenario #1, Hands:
If the distance between "A" and "B" remains somewhat constant (Extensor Action), "B" should inscribe a circle on a piece of paper, like a compass. If we complicate it by letting "A" move (like the golf stroke), the circle becomes somewhat elliptical."
In your mind, the hand arc's 3-D movement in space should be dominated by the movement of B in a circular rotational arc around the axis point of A, which theoretically should produce a circular hand arc. However, you are minimizing the importance of the independent movement of A as significantly affecting the shape of the hand arc - when you write "somewhat elliptical". The reality is that the independent movement of A dominates the early downswing.
In the early downswing, the pelvis shift movement pulls the power package assembly intact all the way down to waist level - without significant separation of the left arm from the chest wall (PA#4 remains loaded). That means that there is no rotational movement of B around the axis point of A, and most of the hand movement in space is due to the movement of the left shoulder socket (A).
You can see that phenomenon is Ben Hogan's swing here.
Look at how much Hogan's hands move down in the early downswing - without any rotational movement of B around the axis point of A as a result of the release of PA#4. The loaded/intact left arm flying wedge's relationship to the left shoulder socket remains unchanged until the hands reach waist level, and it is only then that PA#4 releases allowing B to rotate around the axis point of A in a circular fashion.
The same phenomenon can see in this bird's eye view series of images.
Note that the left arm-shoulder angle remains roughly the same during the early downswing (I incorrectly placed the apex of that wedge in image 1 which makes the angle look wider) - until the hands get down to waist level.
That means that the first part of the hand arc (in the early downswing) essentially doesn't involve any rotational movement of B around the axis point of A (due to the release of pA#4), and is mainly due to the independent movement of A. That's why the hand arc is generally U-shaped, and not circular.
Jeff.
Wow!
Un-huh . . .
And Amen!
For the rest of us:
Except as effected by Wristcock for Power considerations, the Hands and Clubhead ideally move in concentric circles. This is Rhythm (2-0; 6-B-3-0; and The Glossary / Rhythm / Wristcock).
"Let's make the geometry simple, if anyone else is going to learn anything. And, we'll consider the center of the circle the left shoulder, since it's the top of the radius. Let's call the left shoulder "A". We'll call the hands "B" and the clubhead "C".
Scenario #1, Hands:
If the distance between "A" and "B" remains somewhat constant (Extensor Action), "B" should inscribe a circle on a piece of paper, like a compass. If we complicate it by letting "A" move (like the golf stroke), the circle becomes somewhat elliptical."
In your mind, the hand arc's 3-D movement in space should be dominated by the movement of B in a circular rotational arc around the axis point of A, which theoretically should produce a circular hand arc. However, you are minimizing the importance of the independent movement of A as significantly affecting the shape of the hand arc - when you write "somewhat elliptical". The reality is that the independent movement of A dominates the early downswing.
In the early downswing, the pelvis shift movement pulls the power package assembly intact all the way down to waist level - without significant separation of the left arm from the chest wall (PA#4 remains loaded). That means that there is no rotational movement of B around the axis point of A, and most of the hand movement in space is due to the movement of the left shoulder socket (A).
You can see that phenomenon is Ben Hogan's swing here.
Look at how much Hogan's hands move down in the early downswing - without any rotational movement of B around the axis point of A as a result of the release of PA#4. The loaded/intact left arm flying wedge's relationship to the left shoulder socket remains unchanged until the hands reach waist level, and it is only then that PA#4 releases allowing B to rotate around the axis point of A in a circular fashion.
The same phenomenon can see in this bird's eye view series of images.
Note that the left arm-shoulder angle remains roughly the same during the early downswing (I incorrectly placed the apex of that wedge in image 1 which makes the angle look wider) - until the hands get down to waist level.
That means that the first part of the hand arc (in the early downswing) essentially doesn't involve any rotational movement of B around the axis point of A (due to the release of pA#4), and is mainly due to the independent movement of A. That's why the hand arc is generally U-shaped, and not circular.
Jeff.
Jeff - "In your mind"
Thank you for letting me know what I had in my mind. I had no idea.
It still doesn't justify the statement that you made and I quoted. I included the movement of the left shoulder in my statement. You've still omitted the ever changing distance between the left shoulder and the clubhead.
If you're choosing to speak specifically about the Start Down, that's one small part. The "more circular" statement was vague at best, and it's still lacking.
I am puzzled when you state that the clubhead arc is likely to be less circular than the hand arc because of the following problem - the everchanging distance between the left shoulder and the clubhead.
I suspect that you don't spend much time studying golf swings using a swing analyser program and that you don't plot the clubhead arc and hand arc to see what is really happening.
The clubhead arc is amazingly circular in reality, compared to the hand arc.
Here is a strobe photograph showing the clubhead and hand arcs.
Note that the clubhead arc is much more circular than the hand arc.
Here is a composite photograph of Aaron Baddeley' swing.
Note how circular the clubhead's path is in space -despite a varying distance from the clubhead to the left shoulder.
I have previously posted photos of the hand arc of Tiger Woods, which shows an U-shaped hand arc.
Here is Sergio Garcia's hand arc.
Even when taking into account the camera perspective distortion problem (due the camera not being perpendicular to the plane of the clubshaft and the plane of the hand motion), it should be readily apparent that the clubhead arc of a good golfer is more rounded than the hand arc.
I suspect that you don't spend much time studying golf swings using a swing analyser program and that you don't plot the clubhead arc and hand arc to see what is really happening.
Yeah, and I'm sure you never looked at an x-ray during your residency.
I've only given about 13,000 video lessons in the last ten years. I hope I can learn how to use the software before I start getting really busy.
Hybrid Mode
