I don't know the answer to your question. It's very complex. If Badds had 3" more left lateral hip slide, then it may affect his hand arc at the start of the downswing if the lower body shift affected the upper body's motion in space. That depends on the degree of dynamic X-factor - the amount of torso-pelvic separation at the start of the downswing. Some golfers have a lot of dynamic X-factor, and an additional amount of left-lateral pelvic shift-rotation may not influence the movement of the left shoulder socket in space, while other golfers have little dynamic X-factor and their shoulders move rapidly in response to any pelvic-shift rotation movement. There is presumably also variations in the degree of secondary axis tilt occurring with a greater amount of left-lateral pelvic slide and that may affect the angle of the shoulder's axis of rotation around the spine. I do not have the insight to compute all these confounding variables and make a rational outcome prediction.
I don't know the answer to your question. It's very complex. If Badds had 3" more left lateral hip slide, then it may affect his hand arc at the start of the downswing if the lower body shift affected the upper body's motion in space. That depends on the degree of dynamic X-factor - the amount of torso-pelvic separation at the start of the downswing. Some golfers have a lot of dynamic X-factor, and an additional amount of left-lateral pelvic shift-rotation may not influence the movement of the left shoulder socket in space, while other golfers have little dynamic X-factor and their shoulders move rapidly in response to any pelvic-shift rotation movement. There is presumably also variations in the degree of secondary axis tilt occurring with a greater amount of left-lateral pelvic slide and that may affect the angle of the shoulder's axis of rotation around the spine. I do not have the insight to compute all these confounding variables and make a rational outcome prediction.
Jeff.
Can I let it hang out there for a little while longer. I do know he does not do it enough. Hard to say with 2D pictures, I know you agree and it gets hammered all the time on threads. I will say axis tilt axis tilt and axis tilt.
Another note is how long the left knee goes forward in reponse to this move, how it changes the center of the left shoulder.
I think that the amount of axis tilt depends on one's pivot action style.
Badds is now a S&T golfer which means that he positions his head in the center of his stance. He then keeps his head stationary for the remainder of the swing. Under those conditions, he cannot develop a greater degree of spinal tilt - unless he shifted the outer border of the left pelvis outside the outer border of his left foot (which is not a good idea). Therefore, I think that his degree of axis tilt is appropriate for his swing style.
Hogan positioned his head right-of-center of his stance at address, and therefore he will acquire a greater degree of axis tilt in his downswing.
I think that the amount of axis tilt depends on one's pivot action style.
Badds is now a S&T golfer which means that he positions his head in the center of his stance. He then keeps his head stationary for the remainder of the swing. Under those conditions, he cannot develop a greater degree of spinal tilt - unless he shifted the outer border of the left pelvis outside the outer border of his left foot (which is not a good idea). Therefore, I think that his degree of axis tilt is appropriate for his swing style.
Hogan positioned his head right-of-center of his stance at address, and therefore he will acquire a greater degree of axis tilt in his downswing.
Jeff.
Jeff,
So, for a given degree of axis tilt, you think it is more healthy to move your head back than your hips forward?
I think that the amount of axis tilt depends on one's pivot action style.
Badds is now a S&T golfer which means that he positions his head in the center of his stance. He then keeps his head stationary for the remainder of the swing. Under those conditions, he cannot develop a greater degree of spinal tilt - unless he shifted the outer border of the left pelvis outside the outer border of his left foot (which is not a good idea). Therefore, I think that his degree of axis tilt is appropriate for his swing style.
Hogan positioned his head right-of-center of his stance at address, and therefore he will acquire a greater degree of axis tilt in his downswing.
Jeff.
outer border of his left foot (which is not a good idea)? Sure I agree if it never cleared during that move, sure that would suck. But thats the deal hips move forward and the knees too, hips will open due to the left foot being on the ground.
As in another post moven that head can be dangerous, once it goes back the head can go forward very well. Unless you like to bend plane lines.
Last edited by cpwindow4 : 12-30-2008 at 05:51 PM.
Reason: mistype
HB - you asked-: "So, for a given degree of axis tilt, you think it is more healthy to move your head back than your hips forward?"
Are you talking about the address position or impact position?
I think that the outer border of the left pelvis should never get outside the outer border of the left foot at impact.
I think that if one positions the outer border of the left pelvis just inside the left foot at address (by shifting the pelvis slightly leftwards at address), then one can adopt an anticipated impact alignment position with the desired degree of axis tilt that one wants to achieve at impact. Then one should keep one's head in that position at address and start from there - keeping the head stationary throughout the remainder of the swing. For irons, the head will likely end up being in the center of the stance and for a driver just right-of-center - if one adopts that practice-pattern.
HB - you asked-: "So, for a given degree of axis tilt, you think it is more healthy to move your head back than your hips forward?"
Are you talking about the address position or impact position?
I think that the outer border of the left pelvis should never get outside the outer border of the left foot at impact.
I think that if one positions the outer border of the left pelvis just inside the left foot at address (by shifting the pelvis slightly leftwards at address), then one can adopt an anticipated impact alignment position with the desired degree of axis tilt that one wants to achieve at impact. Then one should keep one's head in that position at address and start from there - keeping the head stationary throughout the remainder of the swing. For irons, the head will likely end up being in the center of the stance and for a driver just right-of-center - if one adopts that practice-pattern.
Jeff.
Jeff,
If you set up like that with hips at fix and don't move your hip forward in downswing, how are you going to get your straight line delivery path?
You asked-: "If you set up like that with hips at fix and don't move your hip forward in downswing, how are you going to get your straight line delivery path?"
The answer - like Aaron Baddeley. Note that Badds, like other S&T golfers, has very little left-lateral pelvic shift in the early downswing. It is more of a hip bump - as one replants weight on the left foot. He still has a straight section at the start of his hand delivery path. However, it is not as pronounced as Hogan's straight section - possibly because Hogan had more hip slide in his early downswing. Badds hand arc is more rounded than Hogan's and predisposes to a slower random release.
I used to set up with my pelvis centralised at address, and I then acquired secondary axis tilt at address by tilting my upper torso, which caused my head to move behind the center of the stance. I now prefer Yoda's recommendation for my iron shots, where he recommends keeping the head centralised and then shifting the pelvis left laterally to acquire a rightwards tilted spine. I still perform that pelvic shift action action when setting up for a driver. However, I anticipate the need for more secondary axis tilt with a driver at impact, so I allow my head to be positioned slightly right-of-center at address by having more rightwards tilt at address.
I have noted that many professional golfers prefer to have their pelvis centralised at address, and they therefore have their head further back when using a driver - sometimes closer to the right foot than to the center of the stance. They will presumably have a slightly different "straightish" section in their 10-23-A hand delivery path as a consequence of that choice. I have no "evidence" that their choice is biomechanically disadvantageous. Tiger Woods and Ben Hogan play superlative golf using that address position style for their driver shots.
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