I would like to know your age. Age and athleticism are big factors in how far a person can hit. I know this because I often play will a group of older-timers which I wager to guess have been on the planet hitting golf balls long before you were even a twinkle in your mother's eye.
These guys sit around an remiss saying things to each other like: "when did you start losing it".... (They mean distance). Just because Jeff does not hit hit his 5 iron as far as you does not mean he has a "power leak". Besides... golf is about three games.... distance off the tee is only one of them, then there is the short game and putting. Winning means being reasonably good at all three.
I'm backing out of this thread now because.... Frankly none of what you wrote (in that last post) make a damn bit of sense to me (I don't know the book chapter and verse and never will). But I thought were were talking about the face opening on the backswing and closing on the downswing not release. I thought the issue was what causes shanking. Anyway. .... Here are a couple of parting thought on the dreaded "S" word...
1) Check your balance.. if you are going forward (on your toes) you will shank it
2) Try gripping down a bit. One-size fits all clubs don't work (men's adults for instance) but can be played by about anyone but only if you compensate for your individual anatomy. If, say your arms are longer than normal or your legs are shorter than normal or god forbid both, then you are going to have too much club shaft between your hands and ball. That will cause a shank... and it may even vary from day to day. Bobby Jones would adjust his hands up and down the grip on any given day and we should too.
Last edited by no_mind_golfer : 01-17-2009 at 12:58 PM.
"So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweet Spot", or "Swing", Plane. But herein unless otherwise noted, "Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application,. Study 2-N. Except during Impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to and from , either Plane because Club Shaft rotation must be around the Sweet Spot-not vice versa. So Clubhead "Feel" is Clubhead Lag Pressure (6-C) and is a Golfing Imperative. (2-0), If Lag Pressure is lost the Hands tend to start the hosel (instead of the Sweet Spot) toward Impact---the mysterious "Shank"..............."
And we sense this lagging sweet spot with the pp #3. Both ends of Lukes string.
While common sense would seem to suggest a shank is caused by getting too close to the ball , which maybe the case sometimes, this is another very interesting cause. Perhaps there is a chicken and egg relationship too? The loss of swing radius as a possible effect rather than cause? Swinging the clubshaft causing us to encroach, shorten our radius and shank?
1L-11 "Clubhead Force and Motion is On Plane at right angles to the Longitudinal Center Of Gravity and varies with the Speed , Mass and Swing Radius."
Im having trouble picturing this one fully. By clubHEAD is he referencing the force and motion of lag pressure? What is meant by "right angles to the LCOG"? Is LCOG referring to the string or the sweet spot point on the clubface?
Where does force (when focused) point? Down the sweet spot plane and tracing the plane line like a laser or flash light?
OB Left - You wrote-: "All of this begs the question: Why arent there face balanced , center shafted irons? There must be a very good reason. We must need the rotation perhaps?"
Exactly. Golf is a sport where the golfer swings the arms and clubshaft around a rotating torso at an angle to the ground. We need the rotation because human anatomy dictates the need to rotate the flat left wrist/hand unit during the backswing to get the hands far enough back (near the right shoulder) and human anatomy dictates that the golfer must perform a similar reverse-rotation (as a mirror image movement) in the followthrough/finish phase. The clubface will only be square to the ball-target line at impact. During the downswing-followthrough motion, the clubface rotates from open to closed because it is moved in that manner by the flat left wrist/hand. At no time point does the clubshaft rotate about its longitudinal axis (like a spinning top). If it did, then the idea of an axis between PP#3 and the clubface sweetspot, and the idea of the hosel rotating about that axis, may have some definite relevance. So far, Yodas Luke has only inferred that the imaginary straight line between PP#3 and the sweetspot has relevance during the takeaway. That's only a small fraction of the clubshaft's total movement during the golf swing.
Regarding the issue of shanking, I think that a major causal factor is a failure of a golfer to understand that the clubface must rotate from open-to-close through the impact zone, and that the closing clubface phenomenon is due to the release swivel action where the flat left wrist/hand rotates 90 degrees in the late downswing. I think that the mental idea of the "clubhead rotating about the hosel" would actually help those golfers because they are essentially dragging the clubshaft towards impact as if the clubhead were center-shafted. I think that they need to realize conceptually that the toe of the club must rotate about the heel of the club during the pre-impact phase of the golf swing, and that it will happen automatically if they correctly rotate the back of their flat left wrist/hand.
Regarding the issue of shanking, I think that a major causal factor is a failure of a golfer to understand that the clubface must rotate from open-to-close through the impact zone,
YES ID AGREE WITH THIS. I HAVE NOTICED THAT ON THE RANGE A SHANK IS NORMALLY FOLLOWED BY AN OVERSWIVELLED PULL HOOK. MAYBE THAT IS JUST ME HOWEVER.
and that the closing clubface phenomenon is due to the release swivel action where the flat left wrist/hand rotates 90 degrees in the late downswing.
GIVE SOME CONSIDERATION TO CF OR THE NOTION OF THE CLUB FACE TOPPLING OVER ON ITS OWN. IT DOES FEEL THAT WAY TO ME ANYWAYS WHEN IM SWINGING, LESS SO WHEN IM HITTING MAYBE.
I think that the mental idea of the "clubhead rotating about the hosel" would actually help those golfers because they are essentially dragging the clubshaft towards impact as if the clubhead were center-shafted.
MAYBE THEY THINK THEY ARE DOING THAT. BUT IF THEY ACTUALLY ARE ROTATING THE CLUBHEAD ABOUT THE HOSEL , THEY ARE IN FOR A SHANK. ASSUMING THEY ARE MAKING GOOD CONTACT THEY ARE UNKNOWINGLY PERHAPS, SWINGING THE SWEETSPOT AND THE ROTATION IS THEREFOR ONE OF THE CLUB SHAFT ABOUT THE SWEETSPOT.
BUT AS A MENTAL IDEA I SEE HOW IT COULD HAVE SOME VALUE THOUGH TECHNICALLY INCORRECT.
I think that they need to realize conceptually that the toe of the club must rotate about the heel of the club during the pre-impact phase of the golf swing, and that it will happen automatically if they correctly rotate the back of their flat left wrist/hand.
CONCEPTUALLY MAYBE BUT NOT ACTUALLY AND NOT SOLELY DUE TO FOREARM ROTATION, I DONT THINK.
Jeff.
Hey Jeff
Nice thread again. With lots of contributions and food for thought. I have responded above In caps.
You wrote-: "MAYBE THEY THINK THEY ARE DOING THAT. BUT IF THEY ACTUALLY ARE ROTATING THE CLUBHEAD ABOUT THE HOSEL , THEY ARE IN FOR A SHANK".
I don't think that a golfer ever rotates the clubhead around the clubshaft axis. It only "feels" like it is happening when the golfer notes that the toe passes the heel in the followthrough.
What causes the clubface to close is simply the phenomenon of the flat left wrist/hand rotating in space. What causes this rotation?
Pre-impact, the release swivel action is due to external rotation of the left humerus within the left shoulder socket combined with a small amount of left forearm supinatory movement - all these biomechanical actions are passive and are merely the reversal of the rotary biomechanical actions that occurred in the backswing.
Post-impact, the flat left wrist/hand rotates around to the left due to a horizontal hinging action, which is biomechanically due to external rotation of the left humerus within the left shoulder socket while the left shoulder socket moves left/backwards due to continued torso rotation.
The clubface remains neutral relative to the left hand and it doesn't roll-over relative to the flat left wrist/hand because the left hand always firmly grips the club and never allows the clubshaft to rotate within the grasp of the left hand. The clubface simply rotates to exactly the same degree as the flat left wrist/hand rotates pre-impact and post-impact.
You wrote-: "MAYBE THEY THINK THEY ARE DOING THAT. BUT IF THEY ACTUALLY ARE ROTATING THE CLUBHEAD ABOUT THE HOSEL , THEY ARE IN FOR A SHANK".
I don't think that a golfer ever rotates the clubhead around the clubshaft axis. It only "feels" like it is happening when the golfer notes that the toe passes the heel in the followthrough.
What causes the clubface to close is simply the phenomenon of the flat left wrist/hand rotating in space. What causes this rotation?
Pre-impact, the release swivel action is due to external rotation of the left humerus within the left shoulder socket combined with a small amount of left forearm supinatory movement - all these biomechanical actions are passive and are merely the reversal of the rotary biomechanical actions that occurred in the backswing.
Post-impact, the flat left wrist/hand rotates around to the left due to a horizontal hinging action, which is biomechanically due to external rotation of the left humerus within the left shoulder socket while the left shoulder socket moves left/backwards due to continued torso rotation.
The clubface remains neutral relative to the left hand and it doesn't roll-over relative to the flat left wrist/hand because the left hand always firmly grips the club and never allows the clubshaft to rotate within the grasp of the left hand. The clubface simply rotates to exactly the same degree as the flat left wrist/hand rotates pre-impact and post-impact.
Jeff.
I think there is more at play here than just the swivel. Swivel does play a part but not the only part Im guessing.
Consider this photo of Homer Kelley. Somewhere on this site (I cant find it) is a post by Yoda describing what it is that Mr Kelley is swinging around his head. Something like a balsa wood club head with a small metal screw acting as the sweet spot and creating a COG similar to a real club.
You'll note the position of the string from #3 to the sweet spot. Not so "imaginary" here is it? Also of note is that the club face stays aligned nicely via CF without any involvement what so ever of forearm rotation or swivel.
It was Yoda who took this photo, he said the smiles seen here were due to Mr Kelley's first failed attempt that saw the string wrap itself around his body.
Yodasluke. Anybody.
Why should the "virtual clubshaft" be defined as the string from pp#3 to sweetspot? Why not pp#2 to sweetspot instead, since the CF is involved with pp#2 as one of the swing centers?
I would like to know your age. Age and athleticism are big factors in how far a person can hit. I know this because I often play will a group of older-timers which I wager to guess have been on the planet hitting golf balls long before you were even a twinkle in your mother's eye.
These guys sit around an remiss saying things to each other like: "when did you start losing it".... (They mean distance). Just because Jeff does not hit hit his 5 iron as far as you does not mean he has a "power leak". Besides... golf is about three games.... distance off the tee is only one of them, then there is the short game and putting. Winning means being reasonably good at all three.
And, I'm sure that because they were hitting balls before I was born, it makes a difference in the price of eggs in China. That's priceless.
I'm 39 until the 26th of this month. I'm aware that some use age as an excuse, but I won't put up with that garbage. Tell them to get in the gym, take a lesson, or stop complaining.
Unfortunately, there's news that they are eliminating the Super Senior Division at the World Long Drive Championship. There's a man that's taken many lessons from me that has competed in the event. But if you saw him walk up, you'd bet your life savings that you could hit it past him. He's presently 60 years old, and he's had both knees replaced. He doesn't walk as well as he swings. He just set his personal best drive of 343 yards, last year at 59 years old.
Another student, age 51, is the one that I've written about recently that in one year has gone from 84 mph with the driver to averaging well over 100 mph in clubhead speed. He's having the time of his life and has taken double digits off of his handicap.
So, I'm not playing the violin for your "old-timers". I don't believe that Gary Player will drop a tear, either.
Originally Posted by no_mind_golfer
I'm backing out of this thread now because.... Frankly none of what you wrote (in that last post) make a damn bit of sense to me (I don't know the book chapter and verse and never will).
Who would have guessed that?
Originally Posted by no_mind_golfer
But I thought were were talking about the face opening on the backswing and closing on the downswing not release. I thought the issue was what causes shanking. Anyway. .... Here are a couple of parting thought on the dreaded "S" word...
1) Check your balance.. if you are going forward (on your toes) you will shank it
2) Try gripping down a bit. One-size fits all clubs don't work (men's adults for instance) but can be played by about anyone but only if you compensate for your individual anatomy. If, say your arms are longer than normal or your legs are shorter than normal or god forbid both, then you are going to have too much club shaft between your hands and ball. That will cause a shank... and it may even vary from day to day. Bobby Jones would adjust his hands up and down the grip on any given day and we should too.
#2 is so far beyond repair, it's unfair for me to comment...
You wrote-: "I'm 39 until the 26th of this month. I'm aware that some use age as an excuse, but I won't put up with that garbage. Tell them to get in the gym, take a lesson, or stop complaining."
Phew!
I have seen that attitude among many golf instructors. It is a great pity! The problem is not age per se, it's age-related physical inflexibility problems. Many elder people don't suffer from age-related flexibility problems - like Gary Player. However, others do - like Arnold Palmer. He has such poor torso flexibility at present that he virtually has to stand erect to execute a torso rotation. The age-related torso inflexibility problem is not remedial with gym workouts if the problem is genetic - an increased age-related genetic predisposition to calcification of spinal ligaments and/or increased fibrosis of the intervertebral discs and paraspinal ligaments that causes a major loss of disc/ligament elasticity.
OB Left
That photo of Homer has no relevance. Look at how he swings the string - his hand and arm is outstretched away from his body. In a "real" golf swing, a swinger has his right elbow in a pitch position alongside his right hip at the delivery position with the right elbow still bent - like Aaron Baddeley in the next photo. From that position, consider the biomechanical events involving the left upper limb that must occur if he wants to rotate the flat left wrist/hand 90 degrees into impact.
Jeff.
Last edited by Jeff : 01-18-2009 at 01:18 AM.
Reason: grammar
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