Clubshaft orbit through the impact zone

[Jeff]

Yoda

You state that I am wrong. That may certainly be true. However, I would better appreciate that fact if you provided a detailed explanation.

In 10-10-D, Homer states that the angled hinge keeps the clubshaft on the inclined plane while the horizontal hinge keeps the clubface turning. That's exactly what I was demonstrating in this short video.

I placed the clubshaft on the inclined plane. I could then theoretically vary the degree of roll-over of the clubface while the clubshaft travels on the inclined plane - by varying the instantaneous degree of rotation of the clubshaft during its travel on the inclined plane.

Where is my error in the interpretation of 10-10-D?

You also wrote with respect to the clubshaft-: "it must rotate to and from the Plane of the Sweetspot." How does the clubshaft rotate to/from the plane of the sweetspot when Homer stated in 10-10-D that the clubshaft is maintained on the inclined plane?

Neil - let me ask you a simple question. If you can imagine the clubshaft twirling on its axis so that the hosel rotates around the sweetspot, can you please provide photographic evidence of exactly where in the golf swing this phenomenon is happening? Thanks.

Jeff.

[Yoda]

Yoda

You state that I am wrong. That may certainly be true. However, I would better appreciate that fact if you provided a detailed explanation.

I already did. Incubate my reply -- posts don't have to be 1,000 words long to be precise -- for more than a nanosecond and get back to me. In retrospect, in addition to 10-10-D and 2-C-1, also study 2-F, 2-G, 7-10, 6-B-3-0, and The Glossary (specifically Flat And Vertical Left Wrist; Hinge Action; and Rhythm).

In 10-10-D, Homer states that the angled hinge keeps the clubshaft on the inclined plane while the horizontal hinge keeps the clubface turning. That's exactly what I was demonstrating in this short video.

. . .

Where is my error in the interpretation of 10-10-D?

For starters, you did not demonstrate 10-10-D (Horizontal Hinging on an Angled Plane). Instead, you demonstrated 10-10-C (simple Angled Hinging). But, even Angled Hinge Action demands Clubshaft Rotation. Only with Vertical Hinge Action (10-10-B/E and 2-C-2/3) and its Zero #3 Accumulator Action would your argument have any validity.

You also wrote with respect to the clubshaft-: "it must rotate to and from the Plane of the Sweetspot." How does the clubshaft rotate to/from the plane of the sweetspot when Homer stated in 10-10-D that the clubshaft is maintained on the inclined plane?

Read the caveat and detailed explanation in 2-F, and you will understand. On second thought, maybe not. In a pinch, re-read the third sentence of the second paragraph in my post #125 above.

Neil - let me ask you a simple question. If you can imagine the clubshaft twirling on its axis so that the hosel rotates around the sweetspot, can you please provide photographic evidence of exactly where in the golf swing this phenomenon is happening? Thanks.

Neil has given me his proxy, so allow me, please . . .

"What I said is a fact. And anyone who understands Sweetspot Plane versus Shaft Plane understands that fact. In person, I can demonstrate it in five seconds. Regarding photographic proof, it ain't my job to jump through your hoops."

[chbkk]

.........

Jeff,
You are advocating the center of mass (COM) of the clubhead to move in a non-planar like fashion. In a real full swing, we now need to identify a force - a significant one indeed - to change direction of the COM like you stated.
I like your fighter spirit - cornered but still fight hard.

[Jeff]

Yoda

I agree that I was demonstrating angled hinging. To demonstrate horizontal hinging, I would merely have had to increase the degree of instantaneous clubshaft rotation per unit time while the clubshaft remained on the inclined board.

You didn't comment on the fact that under 10-10-C/D, Homer stated that the clubshaft remains on the inclined plane.

I have read 2-F, and I have stated many times in this thread that I have no problem understanding the concept of PP#3 tracing the sweetspot's SPL - because it is the sweetspot that hits the ball and not the hosel. The hosel has to be inside the baseline of the sweetspot's inclined plane at impact. In that sense, one could argue that the hosel leaves the sweetspot's arc of rotation at the third parallel and returns to it at the fourth parallel. I can easily understand those points.

The actual difference in the arc of rotation of the hosel and sweetspot is very small.

Here is a composite photo showing the arc of rotation of the hosel and sweetspot in Anthony Kim's swing.

See -

The red arc delineates the sweetspot arc. The blue arc delineates the hosel arc. They are very close together. The yellow line was drawn by the TV commentator and it represents the clubshaft angle in mid-downswing. Note how it goes through the clubshaft at impact. In other words, in a general sense, the clubshaft is still on-plane at impact - although it is obvious that the only "real" plane of relevance is the sweetspot plane because it is the only plane that is precisely located on the ball-target line. The base of the hosel's inclined plane must theoretically be slightly inside the ball-target line at impact.

I still think that the mental idea of the hosel rotating around the sweetspot has no real relevance because the clubshaft never rotates about its own longitudinal axis to a significant degree at any instantaneous moment in time. The clubshaft rotates very slowly in space throughout the downswing/followthrough and it therefore causes the hosel's arc of rotation to be different to the sweetspot's arc of rotation.

I like Homer's statement when he states-: "Except for Impact, the clubshaft is an acceptable Visual Equivalent for both planes, especially if the Clubface is Turned "On Plane"."

Jeff.

[Yoda]

Yoda

I agree that I was demonstrating angled hinging.

Jeff.

Well, there you go. That was my problem with your stated "interpretation" of 10-10-D, i.e., Horizontal Hinging.

[Yoda]

I still think that the mental idea of the hosel rotating around the sweetspot has no real relevance . . .
Jeff.

It was already dark when I finished my last lesson tonight -- under the lights -- at the Marietta Golf Center. As I walked to my car, I saw a guy hitting ball after ball dead right and with a big left-to-right curve. It wasn't the first time I had witnessed these futile efforts, and I couldn't help myself . . .

I walked over and asked him if he had ever hit a draw. He said no. I told him I was about to change his life.

In twenty minutes, I adjusted his ball position and his address hands location. I unfroze his right hip and got his left foot and knee into action. All this allowed him to swing to top in a beautiful, classic alignment. This done, I taught him how to use his left hand through impact, i.e., how to rotate the shaft around the sweetspot.

Results?

Long, strong draw shots and tears in the eyes of a 52-year-old man who never thought he would or even could see such things.

So, Jeff, you talk to me of "relevance", and I talk to you of joy.

Readers choice.

[Yoda]

I like Homer's statement when he states-: "Except for Impact, the clubshaft is an acceptable Visual Equivalent for both planes, especially if the Clubface is Turned "On Plane"."

Jeff.

That's because the Clubshaft has rotated onto the Plane of the Sweetspot.

[Jeff]

Yoda - Consider again my demonstration of the clubshaft lying on the plane board.

In my example, I stated that the clubshaft lies against the inclined plane board throughout the impact zone. In that practical example I let the clubface close gradually pre-impact and post-impact. However, I also stated that I could vary the degree of clubshaft rotation during the pre-impact phase (to simulate the release swivel phenomenon) and vary the degree of clubshaft rotation post-impact to simulate different hinging actions.

Here is a capture image showing the situation.



The yellow line represents the ball-target line and also the base of the sweetspot plane.

The red line represents the sweetspot plane line (drawn from PP#3 through the sweetspot ).

The green line represents the clubshaft plane - note that the base of the clubshaft plane is inside the ball-target line.

Do you believe that this practical example is actually happening in a golf swing? In other words, do you think that the clubshaft is traveling on its own clubshaft plane through the impact zone while the sweetspot is traveling on its sweetspot plane?

If your answer is yes - then consider your statement in your last post.

You stated-: "the clubshaft has rotated onto the plane of the sweetspot."

Do you imagine the hosel rotating around the sweetspot? If you imagine the hosel rotating around the sweetspot post-impact, then does the hosel have to leave the surface of the clubshaft plane to achieve that goal? If not, then how do you mentally envisage the hosel rotating around the sweetspot? If the hosel has to leave the clubshaft plane to rotate around the sweetspot, then how one can infer that the clubshaft is on its own inclined plane through the impact zone?

If you are tempted to answer that the hosel leaves the clubshaft plane in order to rotate around the sweetspot post-impact, then look at the following Martin Hall swing video.

Note that he is using a simulated golf club that has very long clubhead (>12" in length). If that club has the same club lie angle as a regular club, then doesn't Martin have to swing the club along the same clubshaft inclined plane (along the surface of that plane board) even though the sweetspot plane angle in this example is going to be very different to the clubshaft plane angle. Then, in what sense do you imagine the hosel rotating around the sweetspot of that clubhead post-impact? Also, in what sense do you imagine the clubshaft rotating onto the sweetspot plane of that club post-impact?

Jeff.

[Yoda]

The yellow line represents the ball-target line and also the base of the sweetspot plane.

The red line represents the sweetspot plane line (drawn from PP#3 through the sweetspot ).

The green line represents the clubshaft plane - note that the base of the clubshaft plane is inside the ball-target line.

Do you believe that this practical example is actually happening in a golf swing? In other words, do you think that the clubshaft is traveling on its own clubshaft plane through the impact zone while the sweetspot is traveling on its sweetspot plane?

At Impact, yes.

If your answer is yes - then consider your statement in your last post.

You stated-: "the clubshaft has rotated onto the plane of the sweetspot."

Do you imagine the hosel rotating around the sweetspot?

Yes.

If you imagine the hosel rotating around the sweetspot post-impact, then does the hosel have to leave the surface of the clubshaft plane to achieve that goal?

Yes.

If not, then how do you mentally envisage the hosel rotating around the sweetspot?

Not applicable.

If the hosel has to leave the clubshaft plane to rotate around the sweetspot, then how one can infer that the clubshaft is on its own inclined plane through the impact zone?

Read the bolded portion of the sentence in question from your own post:

I like Homer's statement when he states-: "Except for Impact, the clubshaft is an acceptable Visual Equivalent for both planes, especially if the Clubface is Turned "On Plane"."

Jeff.

"Except for Impact" means exactly what it says. Those words imply -- and I infer -- that otherwise, the Clubshaft is in the process of rotating to or from the Sweetspot Plane.

If you are tempted to answer that the hosel leaves the clubshaft plane in order to rotate around the sweetspot post-impact, then look at the following Martin Hall swing video.

Can I call my lawyer?



Seriously, Jeff, I'm out of time for now. I'll see what I can do later.

Whew!

[Jeff]

In a previous post I think that OB Left stated that he felt the sweetspot through PP#3 during the downswing, and I presume that he tries to trace the base of the sweetspot plane via PP#3 throughout the entire dowswing (and not any clubshaft plane).

OK. Now consider this example.

See -

Anthony Kim is swinging on-plane during the early-mid downswing and that plane is represented by the yellow line drawn by the TV commentator.

Here is AK's clubshaft through impact.



Note that his clubshaft is in a straight line relationship with the yellow line when the clubshaft travels through impact. So, does AK have to trace the sweetspot plane's baseline to achieve that goal, or is he simply swinging on the same clubshaft plane that he was swinging on when his clubshaft was above the third parallel?

Consider this next example.



Imagine that AK was swinging a specially designed club that had a clubhead of 12" width and presume that the club lie angle was the same as his regular driver - represented by the blue lines. Then, he would have to position the ball further away (about 6" from the hosel) to hit the ball in the center of his clubface. The red line represents the sweetspot plane.

Do you imagine that AK could hit the ball well by tracing the baseline of that sweetspot plane? How would he get the bottom of his clubhead to be parallel to the ground if he didn't have the clubshaft tracing the same path (traveling along the same clubshaft plane) as occurs in his regular swing? To achieve that goal, he would have to trace the clubshaft's SPL and not the sweetspot's SPL because one couldn't trace both the clubshaft SPL and the sweetspot SPL at the same time.

If you imagine the hosel leaving the clubshaft plane post-impact to get to the sweetspot plane (so that the hosel can rotate around the sweetspot post-impact), then how would that be possible if he was obliged to keep the clubshaft on the same clubshaft plane throughout the post-impact time period until he reached the fourth parallel?

Jeff.