I value your insights given your years of commitment to the book (s). Was it eight sixth editions that you have burned through? I will take some time to ponder all of this with my solitary 6th in hand. Wish we could hash it out on a range somewhere.
I must admit that I dont understand how you can have a flat ish swing plane with only an inch or two of right elbow bend.
Ill do your drills when I get a chance to without everyone here wondering what the heck Im doing. Here is a drill for your consideration too:
Do you want angled or horizontal......ok horizontal, not trying to out you as a hitter just yet. Ill start at the very beginning for those following along at home.
Standing erect with your left arm held out straight ahead and level to the ground on a horizontal plane, your left arm forming a 90 degree angle at the shoulders. Your open left palm held vertical to the ground. Holding the shoulders still (zero out the pivot), move your left arm across your chest to about a 45 degree angle with the shoulders while maintaining the left palm vertical to the ground. Drop the left arm down onto the inclined plane while maintaining the left palms vertical to the ground alignment. (This is the check for Horizontal Hinging Alignment compliance at various places in startup BTW). Now place your right hand on your left wrist in a quasi golf like fashion. With the Right Forearm now in control of the left arm, the left arm inert, fan the right arm back to its 90 degree or Address position on the inclined plane. Go back and forth between Address and 45 degrees. The degree of fanning vs bending in the right arm, when assuming a real golf grip, is to some degree a function of the right elbow position. I think. Please advise.
Now go back to the 45 degree position again with the right hand on the left wrist , horizontal hinge alignment etc and from there Bend the Right Elbow and allow the left arm to rise to right shoulder height (Top) with the shoulder turn still zeroed out. Do this pump action style to feel the "Pickup", if you will.
So fanning and bending but when morphed in some manner forming a blended motion/action that takes the bent and frozen right wrist to Top. If you do this and then add a shoulder turn after the hands reach Top the right shoulder will take the hands back or "in". The "in" of "back, up and in", Three Dimensional Startup. Pickup for "in", Fan for "back", Shoulder turn for "in".
Let me know what you think. Not sure if this is correct or not. This is something I have been wondering about. Hence my appeal to Bambam and Yoda for more information regarding their post above. Not sure how this jibes with your notes about Plane Angles at Top and in Release etc. Im wondering if by adjusting the 45 degree angle up and down you are also adjusting the plane angle? The steeper the plane the more divergent the direction of the hands vs the shoulders assuming a flat back to the turned shoulder plane move anyways.
Cheers and feel free to rip this to shreds if you wish. This is from the incubator. But like I said, I just have to know how to get this done right. Im good for a while and then it goes away. Stopping at Top seems to help me out when I can do it.
I must admit that I dont understand how you can have a flat ish swing plane with only an inch or two of right elbow bend.
Ob
I feel really bad for you. An inch or two is all that is needed to cock the Right Wrist. You still have all of that elbow bend that you had at impact fix. Add both together and your right arm is bent at an approximately 90 degree angle.......
I feel really bad for you. An inch or two is all that is needed to cock the Right Wrist. You still have all of that elbow bend that you had at impact fix. Add both together and your right arm is bent at an approximately 90 degree angle.......
Ok?
Dont feel sorry for me. Its you Im worried about.
Ok 90 degrees I can see. One man's non bending elbow is the same mans 90 degrees of bend. Ouch. How the heck do you insert smilie faces?.......
Now the hitters are happy since that is what they cock and load. This was my main concern. The hitter with a non bending right elbow?
Standing erect with your left arm held out straight ahead and level to the ground on a horizontal plane, your left arm forming a 90 degree angle at the shoulders. Your open left palm held vertical to the ground. Holding the shoulders still (zero out the pivot), move your left arm across your chest to about a 45 degree angle with the shoulders while maintaining the left palm vertical to the ground. Drop the left arm down onto the inclined plane while maintaining the left palms vertical to the ground alignment. (This is the check for Horizontal Hinging Alignment compliance at various places in startup BTW). Now place your right hand on your left wrist in a quasi golf like fashion. With the Right Forearm now in control of the left arm, the left arm inert, fan the right arm back to its 90 degree or Address position on the inclined plane. Go back and forth between Address and 45 degrees. The degree of fanning vs bending in the right arm, when assuming a real golf grip, is to some degree a function of the right elbow position. I think. Please advise.
Ob
Dear Bewildered,
I understand what you’re saying. Now, don’t ever (unless it’s a trick shot) move your right elbow in a sawing motion again unless its during release. You are correct in believing that your right elbow bend needs to be about 90 degrees to match a swing plane on the elbow plane. Please see my previous post in this thread.
The Elbow is guided by the right shoulder and left arm. Where is it guided to (pointing behind you or downward)?..is the result of Wrist Action at Start-up,,Swivel or Single Action.
The Right Elbow is never in control of anything and especially the left arm. The left arm checkreins the right forearm from unbending(and thereby moving the hands away from the left shoulder) and the Right Shoulder controls the raising of the left arm……….
Extensor action take-away is a “bent over dumbbell shoulder fly” with a bent right arm. Ask your fitness instructor to show you how it’s done. Do one. Make a fist in your right hand. Grab the fist with your left hand and do a Dumbell bent over shoulder fly. See what happens to the Left Arm,, it raises magically.
The reason that your #3 pressure point is directly oppossed to the primary lever is because your Single Action Wrist Action caused it to be there when the Single Action Wrist Action is combined with Extensor Action during the Take-away and Backswing.
Extensor Action combined with my start-up swivel will move my right elbow to a position below the Hands when the shoulder raises the left arm.
Extensor Action: Do not Fan the elbow like a Chicken Wing by holding the right hand steady and the elbow flops around. Its kind of like holding the elbow stationary and fanning the right hand, except that the elbow moves up and down and away from your body (if you have the flexibility)
OB. Here are some drawings to help clarify. But just understand that fanning and extensor lift up are simultaneous. The deltoid muscles perform both motions. The combined motion is like that of a bent over deltoid fly with a bent right arm moving up, away and back simultaneously.
NOTE: That the on-plane right forearm and the Top of swing right forearm have the same bend except that the top of swing forearm has an additional one inch bend for cocking the left wrist. Hackers will have a very bent right arm at the top of the swing. The first bend (95% of total combined bend), which establishes the swing plane is determined at impact fix.
This is the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. The Right Forearm and Club are on the same plane. Do you see the amount of Yoda’s Elbow bend? What do you need to do, to raise the forearm and club off of the plane? Answer: Bend the Elbow.
So, bending the elbow raises the right forearm and club above the plane. Homer Kelley said that the Right Forearm of every hacker come into impact too high. Hackers bend their elbow too much and raise the club above the plane. They have very little flexibility. They need to bend the elbow to raise the left arm to look like a golfer.
This is the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. The Right Forearm and Club are on the same plane. Do you see the amount of Yoda’s Elbow bend? What do you need to do, to raise the forearm and club off of the plane? Answer: Bend the Elbow.
So, bending the elbow raises the right forearm and club above the plane. Homer Kelley said that the Right Forearm of every hacker come into impact too high. Hackers bend their elbow too much and raise the club above the plane. They have very little flexibility. They need to bend the elbow to raise the left arm to look like a golfer.
Daryl those drawings were a lot of work. Thank you. Im with you but not so sure about the Extensor Action, Fly. I was thinking of the right forearms move as described by Yoda in Alignment Golf, the Indian Chiefs "how" or the Pledge of Allegiance type deal.
As far as the Right Forearm Flying Wedge photo goes I see the table top as a representing the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend throughout the swing regardless of right elbow bend. Only at some points in the swing will the RFFW be on the Inclined Plane as well. So yes elbow bend would take the forearm off the table but only if you assume the table to be the inclined plane as opposed to the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend. Per 6-C-3-0-1. "...the Right Forearm and Clubshaft are ....positioned on the plane of the right wrist bend AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE LEFT ARM PLANE. That is the precision assembly of the power package basic structure and is mandatory during the entire motion. Hitting or Swinging..."
Daryl you are learned and very well read. I am a Range Rat and information assimilator with one goal in mind.........to hit it better. I care not for debate on a subject I feel ill equiped and unworthy of intellectualizing. My position is really just stuff I have gleamed right here mixed with my own misconceptions and experiences. Experiences gained over a life time of Golf addiction.
I will go a few more rounds if you wish but only as long as you are entertained and Im learning something. Me making a mash of other peoples ideas and concepts is only a disservice to the other people reading this stuff.
But this is a topic that interests me. I need to simplify my takeaway. So lets cut to the end scene where we all walk happily down the fairway with our new found Magical Right Forearm startups. But who can tell us what that is?
How's the upside down dumbell fly move working for you? Are you working out?
Now, don’t ever (unless it’s a trick shot) move your right elbow in a sawing motion again unless its during release.
The Elbow is guided by the right shoulder and left arm.
The Right Elbow is never in control of anything and especially the left arm. The left arm checkreins the right forearm from unbending(and thereby moving the hands away from the left shoulder) and the Right Shoulder controls the raising of the left arm……….
Im Bewildered? You just noticed this now? Who isnt when reading TGM?
I never said "elbow saw". Gave that up with One Plane.
Magic of the Right Forearm, that cryptic but enticing bit of business. I welcome any insight into this topic and invite others to jump in. Please.
Daryl but if "the Right Elbow is never in control of anything , especially the left arm" as you say, then why did Homer say as much in regard to the Magic of the Right Forearm?
Per 7-3...." Bending and Straightening the Right Elbow will RAISE AND LOWER the left arm". Caps by Homer by the way. One of you guys is totally crazy or maybe both and soon maybe me too.
Great information there...thanks! I tried and gave me a better on plane look in video. One more question...
Does the "tee/towel under armpits drill" violates the "right deltoid raises the left arm"?
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If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
Im Bewildered? You just noticed this now? Who isnt when reading TGM?
I never said "elbow saw". Gave that up with One Plane.
Magic of the Right Forearm, that cryptic but enticing bit of business. I welcome any insight into this topic and invite others to jump. Please, please, please.
Daryl but if "the Right Elbow is never in control of anything , especially the left arm" as you say, then why did Homer say as much in regard to the Magic of the Right Forearm?
Per 7-3...." Bending and Straightening the Right Elbow will RAISE AND LOWER the left arm". Caps by Homer by the way. One of your guys is totally crazy or maybe both and soon maybe me too.
Ob
Don’t worry about me either. I’ve always been high strung. I just had one of those light bulb flash moments. Ya know, everything makes more sense and everything in the book is seen in a new light.
Ya, I know what you mean about the right elbow. I always had the idea that I was supposed to tell the elbow where to go, keep the elbow on plane, the forearm isn’t on plane until the elbows on plane. But now, I think I've got a handle on it and writing it out in the posts helped ingrain it.
Maybe everybody uses extensor action that way, I don’t know, maybe I understand things better when I go at it at a different angle or something. I feel really confident in my understanding of the golfing machine. Better than ever. But, I've said that before.
One more question...
Hybrid Mode
