i would say a quick swingers start down is exactly whats happening stretching it to the max, my hips get very aggressive and arm gets stuck behind me, i tend to be very 'FAST' with my swing. im pretty sure i tore my rotator cuff. not that it matters but is there anybody on tour that swings on the elbow plane, ive seen some flat swings but none below the shoulder
Practically all Tour Players use the Elbow Plane from Release through Impact and to Finish but at the Top of the backstroke they were on a steeper plane.
I realize that, to clarify, my question is how many tour players DO NOT SHIFT to steeper planes and remain on the elbow plane from startup to finish, i would guess very few if any but was curious if there was a player out there to study from, who employs a zero shift elbow plane swing. from my first post, my question is are impact conditions the same when employing a double shifting elbow plane-any steeper plane as employing a zero shift elbow plane swing, I'm thinking impact conditions with regards to spin and hinge action would be the same because with both swings impact occurs on the elbow plane.
I realize that, to clarify, my question is how many tour players STAY on the elbow plane from startup to finish i would guess very few if any. from my first post, my question is if you shift up to steeper planes but return to the elbow plane, it seems to me that impact conditions as far as hinge action would not change if you were to remain on the elbow throughout, in the book it states that staying on the elbow plane makes angled hinge more horizontal hinge and spin rate is reduced but if you return to the elbow plane anyway i dont see how it affects spin or hinge action at all. for example i startup on the elbow plane then shift to Turned shoulder plane start down returns to elbow plane and impact occurs on the elbow plane. wouldn't impact conditions be unaltered with regards to spin and hinge action if i were to remain on the elbow plain throughout?
You're correct. To answer your first question, many of them stay on the elbow plane throughout the swing for putting, chipping and pitch shots.
it's interesting then because homer states in 10-6-A that "it is the flattest normal plane that will still allow the right forearm to be on plane during impact this produces a very flat angle of attack with reduced backspin and should be avoided for short shots unless it is also part of your full stroke pattern." he's suggesting that ideal impact conditions for the short game would be on a steeper plane, a player that i learned the short game from taught me to play all short game shots with the heel of the club never touching the ground, the club resting on the toe, a much steeper plane for the short game then for other shots, one to ensure the heel of the club did not interfere and two to increase height and point the face more straight as you will find a flatly soled perpendicular leading edge wedge shot will hit shots consistently to the left with most modern wedges, however i have found the dave pelz wedges to always aim dead straight when the leading edge is perpendicular to the target line and flatly soled.
Practically all Tour Players use the Elbow Plane from Release through Impact and to Finish but at the Top of the backstroke they were on a steeper plane.
Are they really on the elbow plane or appearing to be so because they drop their heads/torso (Tiger) on the downswing?
Are they really on the elbow plane or appearing to be so because they drop their heads/torso (Tiger) on the downswing?
Whether it's an Elbow Plane or Turned Shoulder Plane, we're always talking about the Clubshaft angle. The following Image of Ben Hogan indicates that the Clubshaft angle at Impact points to the location on his side where his right elbow would touch.
So, regardless bobbing or swaying, it's the clubshaft that defines the plane.
Whether it's an Elbow Plane or Turned Shoulder Plane, we're always talking about the Clubshaft angle. The following Image of Ben Hogan indicates that the Clubshaft angle at Impact points to the location on his side where his right elbow would touch.
So, regardless bobbing or swaying, it's the clubshaft that defines the plane.
To be more precise....
Although they are great pictures, they are worthless for proving anything about the Plane. The camera is not "On Plane". So, the pictures are poor views of the geometry. Only with a camera's eye "On Plane" can lines or conclusions be drawn.
Homer - TGM:
2-F
(6th Edition)
Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweet Spot – the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a “Clubshaft” Plane and a “Sweet Spot,” or “Swing”, Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted, “Plane Angle” and “Plane Line” always refer to the Center of Gravity application. Study 2-N. Except during Impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and – from, either Plane because the Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweet Spot – not vice versa.
(7th Edition)
Except for Impact, the Clubshaft is an acceptable Visual Equivalent for both Planes - especially if the Clubface is Turned "On Plane".
So, the travel of the "Sweet Spot" defines the Plane. The line drawn on the Clubshaft at Address does not define the Plane.
Zero Shift, as I understand it, is the "Sweet Spot" traveling on a single Plane.
I found them on the internet with the lines already drawn. So much for trusting Golf Instructors to draw lines. I didn't want to embarrass anyone by mentioning names. I guess I'll just have to draw them myself from now on.
Does that mean we can't discuss the Swing Plane anymore or does that just limit our visual props to illustrations and/or approved photographs?
Yodasluke has the point correct about the camera needing to be 'on the plane' otherwise you have a distortion to deal with. Using no planed photos you just have to realise that appearances can be deceptive.
Follow the sweet spots travel and life gets easier to grasp in terms of plane shifts.
Yodasluke has the point correct about the camera needing to be 'on the plane' otherwise you have a distortion to deal with. Using no planed photos you just have to realise that appearances can be deceptive.
Follow the sweet spots travel and life gets easier to grasp in terms of plane shifts.
In your opinion, how far off-plane are the above photos?
The above photos were offered in an earlier post to explain why the "Elbow Plane" is called the "Elbow Plane". Would you approve the photo's within that context?
It's easy to mistake what I want to say with what I said. And its easy to mistake what you think I said with what I wanted to say. That wasn't well said but I'm sure you get what I mean.
Separated by thousands of miles, discussing a very complex subject, without the artistic talent to draw what one thinks, confined by a limited vocabulary, and limited mental faculty for 3 dimensional visualization, it's a wonder we can understand each other at all. And that's just you!
I, have even less. A little breathing room please.
That wasn't well said but I'm sure you get what I mean. 
Hybrid Mode
