all types of lag

[KevCarter]

I'm thinking more of the player who floats is at the top and from face on there is very little space between the shaft and the shoulder.

The player needs great hands to get it back from there, like Sergio. I would certainly be careful with a student that he can recover from a lot of accumulator lag. I think I remember someone saying that Sergio type lag is great for distance, not so great for accuracy, but Sergio is a wonderful driver of the ball... so, it must depend... I believe these "snap" type release procedures to be geared more towards very accomplished players.

Kevin

[O.B.Left]

Yes sorry Slice, I took you in a direction that you didnt need to go. The Lag and Drag of the Pivot Train 6-M-1 is a different consideration than that of power generation from the Accumulators. See 6-B for more on that. The Pivot Trains release of Lag is associated with a loss of power and therefor has no Release Point. Sort of like pp#3 in that way. The Accumulators however must be released to generate Power, their Release Point is necessary and of critical importance.

I remember Sean Foley saying that 90 degrees was max for #2 angle. That anything more was counter productive. You must have a student with one heck of a float load. In terms of TGM I can only think of the Endless Belt Analogy and its implications to the Release Point. The later the more power, basically for any given hand speed.

Didnt Ben Doyle say something like "having too much Lag is like having too much Love". I can see how it could be a problem though. Its an interesting question.

[O.B.Left]

OK Ive been thinking about this a little. Couple of things first. Lag in a common golf speak sense is what we TGM types would describe as float loading but with a degrees of left wrist cock perspective attached. Whereas, Like Kev alluded to, Homers Accumulator Lag refers primarily to Lag Pressure at the #3pp which cant be measured visually really, beyond noting the trailing condition of the clubhead. Perhaps if you had a sensor at the #3 measuring the pound per square inch or something.

Accumulator Lag is discussed in 7-19 Lag Loading, where amongst other things Homer says; "Properly manipulated, Clubhead Inertia can withstand all the Lag Pressure anyone can generate."

In terms of degrees of #2, left wrist cock, absent any mechanical arguments against exceeding 90 degrees, Im thinking that you should let the conditions of Release and Impact be your guide. In other words play around with his float loading (Lag Loading) to discover what gets him to his best Release Point. Test it on a launch monitor maybe after you think you got it figured out.

And in this regard Homer does mention degrees of Left Wrist Cock in a way. See 6-N-0, Its a great read but basically the "short quick Arc of Maximum Delay", Snap Release, Maximum Power, is measured in degrees.

"This involves Angular Speed which is measured by the number of degrees of an Arc through which the motion moves per second"

The "per second" part alluding to the Release Point, Travel Time. An earlier Release Point increases the travel time for any given number of degrees to the Arc, with an accompanying loss of power for any given Hand speed. Homer says that doubling the travel time (earlier release) halves the travel rate. To me suggesting that the important thing is not what your guy is doing at Top or in Startdown but what he is doing at Release, so let that be your guide.

Slice, I bet YodasLuke, aka Ted Fort would be the guy to talk on this sort of stuff. Its right in his wheel house.

Regards
Ob

[Mike O]

O.B. - Take it easy with the egg nog!

Lag in a common golf speak sense is what we TGM types would describe as float loading but with a degrees of left wrist cock perspective attached.
Lag is the act of trailing. Float loading is one of three methods used as a loading technique - that's separate from the defintion of lag.

Like Kev alluded to, Homers Accumulator Lag refers primarily to Lag Pressure at the #3pp which cant be measured visually really, beyond noting the trailing condition of the clubhead.

Accumulator lag isn't well defined in the golfing machine but I would at least think it is how much the accumulator is out of line - whether it be #1, #2, #3 or #4 i.e. how much the accumulator is trailing an in-line condition. It certainly has it's relationship to lag pressure - but I wouldn't say it primarily refers to Lag Pressure.
6-C Quote: "Accumulator Lag (7-19) and/or Thrust (7-11) determine the amount of Power generated by the Power Package – Zone #2 (9-2)." And from 6-B-0: "Varying the amount of out-of-line and/or the amount of muscular effort will vary the accumulation of Power that can be Released ...."


In terms of degrees of #2, left wrist cock, absent any mechanical arguments against exceeding 90 degrees, Im thinking that you should let the conditions of Release and Impact be your guide.
From a level condition- the most "cocking" you can get is 30 degrees. From an anatomical defintion - 20 degrees.



When it's four degrees out! - there's time for some forum posting!

[O.B.Left]

Mike

Did you read the entire thread to get the context of what I said?

While there is no dictionary of common golf speak, if there was I doubt "lag" would be anything like the tgm version you shared.

Your thing about left hand wrist cock is interesting. I know what you mean I think but how do you explain the far more accute angle that we can see? Sure looks like more than twenty or thirty degrees. But I defer to you Mike. You've seen a lot of cock in your day.

[Mike O]

Mike

Did you read the entire thread to get the context of what I said?

While there is no dictionary of common golf speak, if there was I doubt "lag" would be anything like the tgm version you shared.

Your thing about left hand wrist cock is interesting. I know what you mean I think but how do you explain the far more accute angle that we can see? Sure looks like more than twenty or thirty degrees. But I defer to you Mike. You've seen a lot of cock in your day.

Bucket's doesn't count.

No I didn't read the entire thread. (You can't become a Masta Threadjacka if you read the entire thread!!!)

The "far more acute angle " as seen from face on (when the player is at the top of the swing)is the #3 accumulator angle. It's always been there, however the player has essentially turned the #3 accumulator angle so that you see it from your face on perspective - plus any wristcock. At address, the person viewing the golfer from "face on", doesn't see any #3 accumulator (although they would if they were looking down the target line). It creates an illusion that there is more movement (wristcock) than there really is. (1-C)

Another way to think of it is from the down the target line perspective- say the player you are watching has 60 degrees of angle between the shaft and the left arm (#3 Accumulator) and then you see them "at address" just cock their wrist another 30 degrees- you would then see the "90 degrees" between the left arm and the shaft.

The illusion is also in play on the down swing from say hands hip high to impact - it appears that you "release" alot more than you really do- because your mind assumes that the loss of the visual angle from the perspective of the face on view isn't really the release of everything - it's the #3 accumulator angle "disappearing from that perspective.

So in summary - it's VERY important to understand the context of your subject and the perspective that you are viewing it from (That's for me- not reading the entire thread )

[O.B.Left]

HaHa.

Thanks for droppin in and rappin TGM oldsckool, Jacka. Wish you did it mo often.

Grand Masta Threadjacka's in the house. Give it up. Do you know where your thread is?

[Yoda]

At address, the person viewing the golfer from "face on", doesn't see any #3 accumulator (although they would if they were looking down the target line). It creates an illusion that there is more movement (wristcock) than there really is. (1-C)

Right you are, Mike O.

With the club under the heel of the left hand and the wrist held Level with the left forearm, an angle is created between the left arm and clubshaft. This is not Wristcock with its obvious out-of-line condition of left arm and clubshaft. Instead, it is merely one in-line condition (the left arm and in-line Level wrist) meeting another in-line condition (the Clubshaft).

This alignment is important because, when the Uncocking Left Wrist (Perpendicular Motion) is followed into Impact by the Swiveling Left Hand (Rotational Motion), the result is Transfer Power (from the Left Wrist to the Left Hand).

Watching a PGA TOUR player executing a short chip or pitch shot can be instructive. Is he cocking his left wrist on the Backstroke . . . or is he merely maintaining its Level address alignment? The Master can execute his Stroke with or without Wristcock. Further, he understands and can control the significant Power implications.

Here's Brian Gay at this year's PGA Championship at Hazeltine. His Level left wrist is the key to his amazing distance control.

[gmbtempe]

Bucket's doesn't count.

No I didn't read the entire thread. (You can't become a Masta Threadjacka if you read the entire thread!!!)

The "far more acute angle " as seen from face on (when the player is at the top of the swing)is the #3 accumulator angle. It's always been there, however the player has essentially turned the #3 accumulator angle so that you see it from your face on perspective - plus any wristcock. At address, the person viewing the golfer from "face on", doesn't see any #3 accumulator (although they would if they were looking down the target line). It creates an illusion that there is more movement (wristcock) than there really is. (1-C)

Here is a pretty cool down the line video of Rory Mclroy releasing.

[innercityteacher]

This is sounding a lot like a middle school, men. Now, if we could get some wooden dolls around here...



Patrick

Mike

Did you read the entire thread to get the context of what I said?

While there is no dictionary of common golf speak, if there was I doubt "lag" would be anything like the tgm version you shared.

Your thing about left hand wrist cock is interesting. I know what you mean I think but how do you explain the far more accute angle that we can see? Sure looks like more than twenty or thirty degrees. But I defer to you Mike. You've seen a lot of cock in your day.