Hi folks,
My first post. I am a serious low handicap golfer finally looking to take my game to the next level and get back to being a competitive golfer. i have had lots of lessons from distinguished teachers but only recently have found my way working with an authorized Golfing Machine instructor. I do have one question about which I am not sure I have found an answer. From the top/end to start the downswing as a swinger I of course bump the left hip and sit down and tilt simultaneously. I don't do anything with my arms. My right shoulder drops on plane and begins to point along the plane line. so far so good. What I don't get is the connection between this 'move' which seems right and two other ideas that don't seem compatible with it. The first is the idea of a quick move to start the downswing which appears both in TGM and in Lynn Blake's video. The second and related idea is that the right shoulder creates a flywheel movement which helps the inert left arm separate from PP#4 and releases the associated power accumulator. I think of a flywheel as an outward motion, yet the right shoulder motion i am taught is both slow and down. I need some clarification including whether these two conceptions which seem conflicting to me are in fact compatible.
Thanks,
Jules
Per GSED Tom Tomasello...10-20-C....the Right Shoulder triggers the start of the downstroke (not the hips or lower body), when the hands are the "End" assembly point per 10-21-C and 10-23-C. Tom taught both PGA and LPGA pros Jodie Mudd and Sally Little this move. Jodie moved up to 35 on the money list and went on to win the Players Championship and the Tour Championship and Sally went on to win one of the LPGA Majors, the du Maurier Classic in 1988...on an ABC interview shortly after winning the du Maurier...Sally credited her recent success through the coaching and swing changes made with Tom Tomasello!!!
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 01-27-2010 at 12:18 AM.
I basically agree with DG, but Hip Action does have a direct influence on the shoulder turn. Whether it is an area that needs attention depends on how well it works and how automatic it has become:
10-15 Hip action
10-15-A: Standard The Hips initiate and lead throughout - pulling the Shoulders in both directions
10-15-B: Delayed /..../ The hips then take over and lead and power the Downstroke Shoulder turn /....../
Then of course you have Short and Zero (C & D) that doesn't lead the shoulder turn in the down stroke but they are hardly relevant in full motion.
Per GSED Tom Tomasello...10-20-C....the Right Shoulder triggers the start of the downstroke (not the hips or lower body), when the hands are the "End" assembly point per 10-21-C and 10-23-C. Tom taught both PGA and LPGA pros Jodie Mudd and Sally Little this move. Jodie moved up to 35 on the money list and went on to win the Players Championship and the Tour Championship and Sally went on to win one of the LPGA Majors, the du Maurier Classic in 1988...on an ABC interview shortly after winning the du Maurier...Sally credited her recent success through the coaching and swing changes made with Tom Tomasello!!!
DG
I always enjoyed Sally Little. I didn't realize she was a TGMer. Very cool!
Kevin
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Per GSED Tom Tomasello...10-20-C....the Right Shoulder triggers the start of the downstroke (not the hips or lower body), when the hands are the "End" assembly point per 10-21-C and 10-23-C. Tom taught both PGA and LPGA pros Jodie Mudd and Sally Little this move. Jodie moved up to 35 on the money list and went on to win the Players Championship and the Tour Championship and Sally went on to win one of the LPGA Majors, the du Maurier Classic in 1988...on an ABC interview shortly after winning the du Maurier...Sally credited her recent success through the coaching and swing changes made with Tom Tomasello!!!
Ogrady was one of Homer's most fervent pupils (although he maintains TGM has tragic flaws) Speaking of controversies...the right shoulder business will get some people fired up! DG, correct me if I am wrong but TT felt that lowering the right shoulder would cause the axis of the spine to tilt and that it would clear the right hip as an effect. But the general TGM consensus is that shifting the hips laterally will tilt the axis of the spine and clear the right hip. Like many I have hit thousands of balls toying with this stuff. Like everything else you find what works for you and try to describe what you think you are doing as close to what you are actually doing. To this end TGM is without peer. Having said that this is what I think: I think that the hips initiate, but I feel as though my right shoulder comes hurtling down the face of the plane. When I think hips I hit it crap...when I think right shoulder I hit it well. Looking at my swing on video there is no doubt that my lower half moves first. In this pic I was focused on two things from a feel point of few. Extensor action and my right shoulder moving assertively down plane at the ball. The EA was there but as I mentioned in another post my right arm straightened a bit prematurely and I hit a solid pull-draw (carried about 20 yards shorter than usual due to the slighly closed face...but ran out nicely!)
I do not want to start another what tilts the axis war, or what starts the downswing but rather mention that the most enduring swing thought that I have ever had (other than "Don't choke you bastard!")is "Drive the right shoulder down until you hit dirt...then drive some more...you bastard!"My axis tilts, the right hip issue the right shoulder and elbow an invitation to proceed. Passing point: Getting my head more centered at address helped a lot. I used to set up with my head hanging over my right knee. This would result in too much axis tilt.
remaining a bit puzzled. Here's why. I am not worried about extent of axis tilt or what creates it, or whether the right shoulder moves downplane as a result of shift to left, a pivot or initiated prior to both. My concern is a bit different. First, I don't understand the invocation in TGM that the movement of the right shoulder for the swinger is quick which is the opposite of what it is for a hitter, which is slow. Secondly, it is supposed to be a quick/flywheel kind of action that throws the club out ultimately by blasting the left arm off the chest, etc. I don't see this movement as of a piece with moving the right shoulder down the plane. the flywheel motion seems to me to me to have an outward vector not a downward one. So these two features of the conventional wisdom of the TGM as well as LB's characterization of teh right shoulder differences in swinging and hitting seem at odds with the thought that however initiated the right shoulder moves slowly and down on to the plane-- which is the image LB uses when he describes the right shoulder relationship to the plane line through the use of the rifle illustration.
As I said I am analytical to a fault no doubt and I can't move on without some clarification of whether these thoughts are compatible or not; and if not, which is the better understanding of TGM
remaining a bit puzzled. Here's why. I am not worried about extent of axis tilt or what creates it, or whether the right shoulder moves downplane as a result of shift to left, a pivot or initiated prior to both. My concern is a bit different. First, I don't understand the invocation in TGM that the movement of the right shoulder for the swinger is quick which is the opposite of what it is for a hitter, which is slow. Secondly, it is supposed to be a quick/flywheel kind of action that throws the club out ultimately by blasting the left arm off the chest, etc. I don't see this movement as of a piece with moving the right shoulder down the plane. the flywheel motion seems to me to me to have an outward vector not a downward one. So these two features of the conventional wisdom of the TGM as well as LB's characterization of teh right shoulder differences in swinging and hitting seem at odds with the thought that however initiated the right shoulder moves slowly and down on to the plane-- which is the image LB uses when he describes the right shoulder relationship to the plane line through the use of the rifle illustration.
As I said I am analytical to a fault no doubt and I can't move on without some clarification of whether these thoughts are compatible or not; and if not, which is the better understanding of TGM
Thanks again,
Jules
Think of the flywheel as a 'pulling' force, the torso pulling the left arm (pressure point #4, the left arm/chest connection). It is the primary force for a swinger.
It isn't a purely horizontal 'spin' like a frisbee, because you are operating on an angled plane (roof).
The right shoulder going down plane is what keeps the force on that angled plane, rather than spinning on a horizontal plane (which is what most high handicap folks do, an over the top, off plane, spin)
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Thanks. very helpful. Still there is the issue of whether in fact the first move of the right shoulder is 'quick' or rather that it does not have to be slow (as it must be for the hitter). And the first direction the right shoulder takes (as a result of the left hip bump) is down and if that is right it is not a flywheel action of any sort, or so it seems to me. The flywheel action occurs as a result of the pivot action I take it and that comes after the weight shift. So it seems to me there are two moves that the right shoulder makes -- one in response to the hip bump (right shoulder down, also causing the axis tilt); the second is the flywheel as a result of the pivot/rotation. So even if the flywheel is quick motion it does not happen first. The right shoulder drops on plane first and does not spin -- though I recall seeing Lynn Blake referring the right shoulder spinning at the start of the downswing (in a swinger). I thought I saw that in one of his videos and I recall reading in TGM that the right shoulder moves quickly in a swinger at the start of the downswing; and that is the source of my confusion. For it seems to me that if the downswing starts from the ground up, the first move of the right shoulder is down the plane; and only then can there be any 'spinning' at all.
Am I mistaken? I am open to learning that I have this all wrong.
I am one of those golfers who isn't happy just having good swings; I have to feel I have good swings for the right reason; and I have to understand that I am doing it correctly. I am sure that this is a minority view as for most people good shots are reward enough. I wish I had more good shots of course, but I crave full understanding (or as close as I can get)
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