Per GSED Tom Tomasello...10-20-C....the Right Shoulder triggers the start of the downstroke (not the hips or lower body), when the hands are the "End" assembly point per 10-21-C and 10-23-C. Tom taught both PGA and LPGA pros Jodie Mudd and Sally Little this move. Jodie moved up to 35 on the money list and went on to win the Players Championship and the Tour Championship and Sally went on to win one of the LPGA Majors, the du Maurier Classic in 1988...on an ABC interview shortly after winning the du Maurier...Sally credited her recent success through the coaching and swing changes made with Tom Tomasello!!!
Ogrady was one of Homer's most fervent pupils (although he maintains TGM has tragic flaws) Speaking of controversies...the right shoulder business will get some people fired up! DG, correct me if I am wrong but TT felt that lowering the right shoulder would cause the axis of the spine to tilt and that it would clear the right hip as an effect. But the general TGM consensus is that shifting the hips laterally will tilt the axis of the spine and clear the right hip. Like many I have hit thousands of balls toying with this stuff. Like everything else you find what works for you and try to describe what you think you are doing as close to what you are actually doing. To this end TGM is without peer. Having said that this is what I think: I think that the hips initiate, but I feel as though my right shoulder comes hurtling down the face of the plane. When I think hips I hit it crap...when I think right shoulder I hit it well. Looking at my swing on video there is no doubt that my lower half moves first. In this pic I was focused on two things from a feel point of few. Extensor action and my right shoulder moving assertively down plane at the ball. The EA was there but as I mentioned in another post my right arm straightened a bit prematurely and I hit a solid pull-draw (carried about 20 yards shorter than usual due to the slighly closed face...but ran out nicely!)
I do not want to start another what tilts the axis war, or what starts the downswing but rather mention that the most enduring swing thought that I have ever had (other than "Don't choke you bastard!")is "Drive the right shoulder down until you hit dirt...then drive some more...you bastard!"My axis tilts, the right hip issue the right shoulder and elbow an invitation to proceed. Passing point: Getting my head more centered at address helped a lot. I used to set up with my head hanging over my right knee. This would result in too much axis tilt.
remaining a bit puzzled. Here's why. I am not worried about extent of axis tilt or what creates it, or whether the right shoulder moves downplane as a result of shift to left, a pivot or initiated prior to both. My concern is a bit different. First, I don't understand the invocation in TGM that the movement of the right shoulder for the swinger is quick which is the opposite of what it is for a hitter, which is slow. Secondly, it is supposed to be a quick/flywheel kind of action that throws the club out ultimately by blasting the left arm off the chest, etc. I don't see this movement as of a piece with moving the right shoulder down the plane. the flywheel motion seems to me to me to have an outward vector not a downward one. So these two features of the conventional wisdom of the TGM as well as LB's characterization of teh right shoulder differences in swinging and hitting seem at odds with the thought that however initiated the right shoulder moves slowly and down on to the plane-- which is the image LB uses when he describes the right shoulder relationship to the plane line through the use of the rifle illustration.
As I said I am analytical to a fault no doubt and I can't move on without some clarification of whether these thoughts are compatible or not; and if not, which is the better understanding of TGM
remaining a bit puzzled. Here's why. I am not worried about extent of axis tilt or what creates it, or whether the right shoulder moves downplane as a result of shift to left, a pivot or initiated prior to both. My concern is a bit different. First, I don't understand the invocation in TGM that the movement of the right shoulder for the swinger is quick which is the opposite of what it is for a hitter, which is slow. Secondly, it is supposed to be a quick/flywheel kind of action that throws the club out ultimately by blasting the left arm off the chest, etc. I don't see this movement as of a piece with moving the right shoulder down the plane. the flywheel motion seems to me to me to have an outward vector not a downward one. So these two features of the conventional wisdom of the TGM as well as LB's characterization of teh right shoulder differences in swinging and hitting seem at odds with the thought that however initiated the right shoulder moves slowly and down on to the plane-- which is the image LB uses when he describes the right shoulder relationship to the plane line through the use of the rifle illustration.
As I said I am analytical to a fault no doubt and I can't move on without some clarification of whether these thoughts are compatible or not; and if not, which is the better understanding of TGM
Thanks again,
Jules
Think of the flywheel as a 'pulling' force, the torso pulling the left arm (pressure point #4, the left arm/chest connection). It is the primary force for a swinger.
It isn't a purely horizontal 'spin' like a frisbee, because you are operating on an angled plane (roof).
The right shoulder going down plane is what keeps the force on that angled plane, rather than spinning on a horizontal plane (which is what most high handicap folks do, an over the top, off plane, spin)
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Thanks. very helpful. Still there is the issue of whether in fact the first move of the right shoulder is 'quick' or rather that it does not have to be slow (as it must be for the hitter). And the first direction the right shoulder takes (as a result of the left hip bump) is down and if that is right it is not a flywheel action of any sort, or so it seems to me. The flywheel action occurs as a result of the pivot action I take it and that comes after the weight shift. So it seems to me there are two moves that the right shoulder makes -- one in response to the hip bump (right shoulder down, also causing the axis tilt); the second is the flywheel as a result of the pivot/rotation. So even if the flywheel is quick motion it does not happen first. The right shoulder drops on plane first and does not spin -- though I recall seeing Lynn Blake referring the right shoulder spinning at the start of the downswing (in a swinger). I thought I saw that in one of his videos and I recall reading in TGM that the right shoulder moves quickly in a swinger at the start of the downswing; and that is the source of my confusion. For it seems to me that if the downswing starts from the ground up, the first move of the right shoulder is down the plane; and only then can there be any 'spinning' at all.
Am I mistaken? I am open to learning that I have this all wrong.
I am one of those golfers who isn't happy just having good swings; I have to feel I have good swings for the right reason; and I have to understand that I am doing it correctly. I am sure that this is a minority view as for most people good shots are reward enough. I wish I had more good shots of course, but I crave full understanding (or as close as I can get)
Thanks. very helpful. Still there is the issue of whether in fact the first move of the right shoulder is 'quick' or rather that it does not have to be slow (as it must be for the hitter). And the first direction the right shoulder takes (as a result of the left hip bump) is down and if that is right it is not a flywheel action of any sort, or so it seems to me. The flywheel action occurs as a result of the pivot action I take it and that comes after the weight shift. So it seems to me there are two moves that the right shoulder makes -- one in response to the hip bump (right shoulder down, also causing the axis tilt); the second is the flywheel as a result of the pivot/rotation. So even if the flywheel is quick motion it does not happen first. The right shoulder drops on plane first and does not spin -- though I recall seeing Lynn Blake referring the right shoulder spinning at the start of the downswing (in a swinger). I thought I saw that in one of his videos and I recall reading in TGM that the right shoulder moves quickly in a swinger at the start of the downswing; and that is the source of my confusion. For it seems to me that if the downswing starts from the ground up, the first move of the right shoulder is down the plane; and only then can there be any 'spinning' at all.
Am I mistaken? I am open to learning that I have this all wrong.
I am one of those golfers who isn't happy just having good swings; I have to feel I have good swings for the right reason; and I have to understand that I am doing it correctly. I am sure that this is a minority view as for most people good shots are reward enough. I wish I had more good shots of course, but I crave full understanding (or as close as I can get)
Hey Jules
Perhaps this will help, perhaps not.
-The "Axis" of Axis Tilt is the Shoulder Axis. Keeping the Head Centered a Sliding of the HIps will tilt the Axis. Meaning the Right Shoulder is lowered. A great thing especially if you are employing a Turned Shoulder Plane. The right shoulder does not "make" this move itself, on its own power. This Hip Slide by the way is a great way to stop the backward motion of the Hands and Arms. Hogan did it really early in Backswing by about the time his left arm was parallel to the ground or so. As in all Pivot Components in regard to 6M1 there is a little slack to be taken up before one Component can actually move the following component. A little muscular stretching prior to shortening.
-8-7 Startdown is the period or Shoulder Acceleration , 8-8 Downstroke is the period of Hand Acceleration , 8-9 Release is the period of Clubhead Acceleration , 8-10 Impact is the period of Ball Acceleration as defined by Homer. Therefor the Axis Tilt if it is employed at all, is prior to Startdown by definition as it does not accelerate the Right Shoulder towards Impact.
-The only thing in Homers world that is quick is the swingers instant initial hip (turn) acceleration and the resulting drive of the right shoulder down plane. As Lynn says "The Right Shoulder, spins , spins, spins like a fly wheel". Which courtesy of the #3 Pressure Point acting in its directional/aiming function, Hands to Pivot, is aligned to the Delivery Line not parallel to the ground like the normal flywheel you mention. Otherwise the Right Shoulder would not be traveling the Inclined Plane which is the entire objective of the Turned Shoulder Plane procedure. This spinning, rotational action of the Right Shoulder creates a CF induced automatic Throwout of the Left Arm (the period of Hand Acceleration) and then in turn the Club (the period of Clubhead Acceleration). We're talking swinging, Automatic Release and full power swings here. Less initial Hip Acceleration means less Loading, less Lag Pressure. And its Lag Pressure that regulates distance. Hogan with a half wedge did not spin his hips or right shoulder as quickly as he did with a driver for instance.
-The Hitter assuming a Three Barrel procedure (who doesnt employ his Right Shoulder like above), who stops at Top and therefore with less Shoulder Turn than those who stop at End, in Startdown leaves his Right Shoulder back, somewhat, as he thrusts his #1 , his active right arm extension. He is using his Right Shoulder as a, somewhat, non accelerating backstop to drive off of , like a launch pad for a rocket, say.
Ill defer to Luke or somebody else as to whether a 4 Barrel Hitter typically employs a slowish startdown. The Remax Long Drive guys dont but they dont even look for those shots, let alone have to play them. Im betting a 4B that is playing for score is typically slowish in Startdown for timing and execution reasons. But packing a real whollap at the bottom.
Ogrady was one of Homer's most fervent pupils (although he maintains TGM has tragic flaws) Speaking of controversies...the right shoulder business will get some people fired up! DG, correct me if I am wrong but TT felt that lowering the right shoulder would cause the axis of the spine to tilt and that it would clear the right hip as an effect. But the general TGM consensus is that shifting the hips laterally will tilt the axis of the spine and clear the right hip. Like many I have hit thousands of balls toying with this stuff. Like everything else you find what works for you and try to describe what you think you are doing as close to what you are actually doing. To this end TGM is without peer. Having said that this is what I think: I think that the hips initiate, but I feel as though my right shoulder comes hurtling down the face of the plane. When I think hips I hit it crap...when I think right shoulder I hit it well. Looking at my swing on video there is no doubt that my lower half moves first. In this pic I was focused on two things from a feel point of few. Extensor action and my right shoulder moving assertively down plane at the ball. The EA was there but as I mentioned in another post my right arm straightened a bit prematurely and I hit a solid pull-draw (carried about 20 yards shorter than usual due to the slighly closed face...but ran out nicely!)
I do not want to start another what tilts the axis war, or what starts the downswing but rather mention that the most enduring swing thought that I have ever had (other than "Don't choke you bastard!")is "Drive the right shoulder down until you hit dirt...then drive some more...you bastard!"My axis tilts, the right hip issue the right shoulder and elbow an invitation to proceed. Passing point: Getting my head more centered at address helped a lot. I used to set up with my head hanging over my right knee. This would result in too much axis tilt.
Nice post Herman!
And . . . pretty sexy picture there too big boyeeee! Can you put up the whole sequence?
To your point . . . there are TWO was that one could tilt one's tea cup . . . . get the spine leaning via moving the head BACK (right shoulder would have a down component and not enough OUT) . . . or tilt the spiney spine via the HIPS going forward . . . (I do . . . spin shoulders THEN tilt back . . . no good). Now you said you hit a pull draw b/c you ran outta right arm . . . why do you think you done that thare? There is a link to lag pressure, club shaft and club face control (right arm control as well) via the pivot train.
I like your lines pretty good here . . . right leg straighty . . . left knee still bent nicely . . . shoulder ain't spinnin' early . . . pretty good bossmagnus!
For a compare to "perfection" . . . .
You is . . . slightly less left knee bendy . . . slightly more tilty at this point . . . and Hogan is swinging a driver here too . . . Sooooooo . . . . IF and I say IF . . . you wanna change things a bit . . . more closed coming down . . . more knee bend left knee which translates in to more hip slant . . . which would translate in to more lag and a sharper angle of attack . . . and less face pullieeez.
Also . . . from DTL . . . How does the face look? Can't quite tell here . . .but could be slightly shutty? that could result in your pull draw pretty quick too.
but all that being said . . . you look pretty HAWT at this point. Me likey. Let's see the the whole thang.
Come back . . .
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Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 01-28-2010 at 05:39 PM.
Interesting to study tigers position right there. It looks like he uses both feet to turn his hips - to a larger extent than the two others. His body seems to be working in three planes at the same time it seems: Shifting weight forward, rotating the hips on a flat-inclined plane and rotatin the shoulders on a steep plane. Some very advanced pivot work going on in that body.
Hybrid Mode
