DG, I was merely responding to your words above. If this is not representative of Toms beliefs about Startdown then the misinterpretation is not mine, (for a change).
I have no problems with an arm centric perception of things. Im a bit of an arm swinger myself. The quarterback firing a long bomb throw is probably not thinking about his pivot for instance. But that doesnt mean that his arm precedes his pivot actually, sequentially. Homer is very clear that Startdown is the period of Right Shoulder acceleration. The period of Arm/Hand acceleration is later, sequentially. Hogan in the Shell's WW of Golf tape traces this move of the Shoulders (and Arms together, fully loaded Power Package) back to the movement of "the lower body". This all relates to the best drill in golf, to my mind, the Startdown Waggle.
Yes, I'm wrong....Tom Tomasello is wrong...and geez we can't forget Homer...he's wrong too!!! Hogan is the Man!!! Why waste your time with TGM!!!
Yes, I'm wrong....Tom Tomasello is wrong...and geez we can't forget Homer...he's wrong too!!! Hogan is the Man!!! Why waste your time with TGM!!!
DG, respectfully, I don't think thats fair. Perhaps a different interpretation, but nobody loves TGM more than O.B. yourself, and many other followers of YODA. We are on the same team here...
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
DG, it was not my intention to suggest that either you or Tom Tomasello had something wrong. If that is what I have communicated then I apologize to you.
You are obviously a huge Tom Tamasello fan and I respect you for that. On the other hand I know very little of Tom Tomasellos work, having only seen the Australian videos a few times.
TGM is not the theoretically closed loop that some suggest it is. Homer acknowledged the existence of non catalogued, X procedures. Neither Lynn nor Homer were averse to them in the least to my mind. But I believe that Homer would theorize about the implications inherent in the procedure, I know Lynn sure does having discussed a few of my own, X procedures with him. It was the implications of your two armed pull down in Startdown that motivated my first comments. There are so many usable variations , trillions of them, that to say something is flat out "wrong" would be rather short sighted to my mind.
I got my butt whipped a few years ago by a guy who hit every shot cross handed. He took the game up at the age of 43 too. Amazing. I celebrate the differences and the sameness ...........but really just wish I looked more like Hogan.
PS Speaking of Hogan, at the end of the Shells WW of Golf match they gave equal time to Sam Snead. His start down thought......... a pull down of the left arm! Vive la difference.
I got my butt whipped a few years ago by a guy who hit every shot cross handed. He took the game up at the age of 43 too. Amazing. I celebrate the differences and the sameness ...........but really just wish I looked more like Hogan.
PS Speaking of Hogan, at the end of the Shells WW of Golf match they gave equal time to Sam Snead. His start down thought......... a pull down of the left arm! Vive la difference.
To be blunt, Homer was theoretically diverse to the extreme. He would never say something was wrong. Incompatible with certain other components maybe but not wrong by itself. I recall an example when during a Masters Class a student asked him if it would be wrong for a swinger to use the Angle of Approach procedure. His reply was something like:
"Well.........no.........but he's got a lot of work to do, a lot of compensations to make".
Its my opinion that the best students who learned directly from Homer embraced, lived , taught this attitude. TGM is not a method as written.
There is a guy I know of who teaches a pattern, a good pattern, his pattern. A pattern in stark contrast to his teachers pattern. He makes a lot of hay criticizing TGM for not including some of his x procedures, for being a closed loop. Its music to the ears of those that think the book is overly obtuse................"stick with me Ill show you the shortcut through the dark forest".
If it gets you where you want to go then great, its a good fit for you. They would be surprised to find that Homer would not be averse to it in any way. But Homer would also recognize any tendencies , compensations which may be inherent. (Perhaps an incompatibility too ) And that is where method teaching gives way to more diverse, informed discussion and approaches artistry.
So we have choices, lots of them. And Homer was all about options. A mind boggling array of options. On that, we should all be able to agree.
By the way, my cross handed friend ended up winning the local Champions of Champions event. Beating some 30 odd club champions, most of whom where half his age. Amazing.
DG, it was not my intention to suggest that either you or Tom Tomasello had something wrong. If that is what I have communicated then I apologize to you.
You are obviously a huge Tom Tamasello fan and I respect you for that. On the other hand I know very little of Tom Tomasellos work, having only seen the Australian videos a few times.
TGM is not the theoretically closed loop that some suggest it is. Homer acknowledged the existence of non catalogued, X procedures. Neither Lynn nor Homer were averse to them in the least to my mind. But I believe that Homer would theorize about the implications inherent in the procedure, I know Lynn sure does having discussed a few of my own, X procedures with him. It was the implications of your two armed pull down in Startdown that motivated my first comments. There are so many usable variations , trillions of them, that to say something is flat out "wrong" would be rather short sighted to my mind.
I got my butt whipped a few years ago by a guy who hit every shot cross handed. He took the game up at the age of 43 too. Amazing. I celebrate the differences and the sameness ...........but really just wish I looked more like Hogan.
PS Speaking of Hogan, at the end of the Shells WW of Golf match they gave equal time to Sam Snead. His start down thought......... a pull down of the left arm! Vive la difference.
I think you need to watch Sam Snead again (I have watched it numerous times, it's not the left arm)!!! According to Tomasello it's a 10-20-E startdown (Snead's Startdown is documented in a number of books, one that I have is "Sam Snead Teaches You His Simple "Key" Approach to Golf", per Hand Key 6: Starting Down , Pull with your left hand fingers", Snead defined it as pulling down with the last two fingers of the left hand, this approach concurs with the Ernest Jones "Swing the Clubhead Approach", I believe the 12-2-0 Swing Stroke Pattern represents most closely to the Snead approach, not Ben Hogan)...yes, there may be a ton of different stroke pattern combinations, but there are less than 10 trigger types...single or in combination.
Next, you'll have to question whether or not Hogan really started the club down with the hips?
It's not that I'm a big fan of Tom Tomasello's instruction, I'm really a big fan of the truth...in anything that I study...I believe Tommy is one of a few who spoke the truth about the golfing machine...time spent with Homer, in person, and the amount of audio recordings that Tommy had at hand to fully understand TGM. I don't know of any TGM instructor who taught TGM like Tommy...going through the whole book with his students....his three part teaching approach....a Swinging School, a Hitting School and an Advanced School (shot making with swinging and hitting). It was a complete picture with Mr. Tomasello.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 02-16-2010 at 11:43 PM.
I am little lost. How did Tomasello say the downswing was initiated? The pulling action of the forearms, or the accelertion of the right shoulder? I probably should know given that this path is well worn, but occured to me that I was a bit vague. Do the arms move the shoulder, or does the right shoulder move the arms? Or do the hips actually move first because the intent was to move the right shoulder down plane? I have posted before that in my own stroke pattern my conscious thought is to hurtle my right shoulder down plane, but the eye of the camera suggest that regardless of my intent the hips slide tilting my axis. Thinking about hip slide is the kiss of death for me. As for pulling of the forearms that tends to disconnect my power package from its engine, the pivot.
I find it interesting that you regard TT as a TGM savant extrodinaire. I agree with OB in that Homer would not be nailed down to one pattern etc. To me any teacher that over emphasizes one pattern, or component variation for that matter, to the exclusion of all others misses the point! Either, they do not have a full understanding of all the workable patterns, or they cannot resist the temptation to have a pet pattern. TGM then becomes a method, and no longer a catalogue of workability. We are still then just looking for a magic bullet (which I have found by the way! ) I like what TT says. To tout his expertise as without peer is admirable from a loyalty point of view, but I think it ultimately marginalizes Tom Tomasello in the eyes of many in light of our benefactor's (Yoda) vast knowledge. Lynn certainly does not have to defend his prowess, it literally speaks for itself. A true TGM savant is not married to a methodology, ultimately honoring Homer's intent. For TT it may have been a hit and miss kind of thing. I think he had an aversion to hitting, which I think has some real advantages. It is tough to be objective, most everybody picks favorites. I found Homer's reluctance to speak adamantly about what he preferred to be quite irritating! Now I appreciate why. Like 10-20-E? Then utilize 10-20-E!
DG I must admit I was going from memory on the Snead Shells WW of Golf demonstration. I tried to find it on line but couldnt. Please put it up if you have a link. I'd love to see it again.
In terms of Hogans sequence, its well documented to my mind, by Hogan himself and others..........ground up. Here is Moe Norman's take on it.............."We're the only two guys in golf that get into a sitting position ......as we take the club back".
DG I must admit I was going from memory on the Snead Shells WW of Golf demonstration. I tried to find it on line but couldnt. Please put it up if you have a link. I'd love to see it again.
In terms of Hogans sequence, its well documented to my mind, by Hogan himself and others..........ground up. Here is Moe Norman's take on it.............."We're the only two guys in golf that get into a sitting position ......as we take the club back".
Nice clip of Moe. If I'm not mistaken, that is the voice of the guy from the Big Break who was a Moe fan (and swung a lot like him). I'm blanking on his name, but I saw him a year or so ago give a clinic in Fairfax, VA. As close to Moe as I've seen in terms of pattern (although not as straight I suspect).
the key part of that clip is the focus on the 'sit down', and the leading of the left knee.
that left knee move is very much worth paying attention to IMO.
Hogan, Moe and Knudson all had it. As does Faldo, and to a less obvious degree, Trevino.
As far as a swinger's start down, a focus on the left knee or right shoulder is a good place to 'start'.
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I am little lost. How did Tomasello say the downswing was initiated? The pulling action of the forearms, or the accelertion of the right shoulder? I probably should know given that this path is well worn, but occured to me that I was a bit vague. Do the arms move the shoulder, or does the right shoulder move the arms? Or do the hips actually move first because the intent was to move the right shoulder down plane? I have posted before that in my own stroke pattern my conscious thought is to hurtle my right shoulder down plane, but the eye of the camera suggest that regardless of my intent the hips slide tilting my axis. Thinking about hip slide is the kiss of death for me. As for pulling of the forearms that tends to disconnect my power package from its engine, the pivot.
I find it interesting that you regard TT as a TGM savant extrodinaire. I agree with OB in that Homer would not be nailed down to one pattern etc. To me any teacher that over emphasizes one pattern, or component variation for that matter, to the exclusion of all others misses the point! Either, they do not have a full understanding of all the workable patterns, or they cannot resist the temptation to have a pet pattern. TGM then becomes a method, and no longer a catalogue of workability. We are still then just looking for a magic bullet (which I have found by the way! ) I like what TT says. To tout his expertise as without peer is admirable from a loyalty point of view, but I think it ultimately marginalizes Tom Tomasello in the eyes of many in light of our benefactor's (Yoda) vast knowledge. Lynn certainly does not have to defend his prowess, it literally speaks for itself. A true TGM savant is not married to a methodology, ultimately honoring Homer's intent. For TT it may have been a hit and miss kind of thing. I think he had an aversion to hitting, which I think has some real advantages. It is tough to be objective, most everybody picks favorites. I found Homer's reluctance to speak adamantly about what he preferred to be quite irritating! Now I appreciate why. Like 10-20-E? Then utilize 10-20-E!
Tomasello....6 ways to start the club down (in the book if you used the hand throw you could get it up to approximately 9 or 10). You have the book read chapter 11 section 20...in the sixth edition it's trigger combinations....
It's interesting they are no knee triggers and there are no hip triggers...wonder why?
The parallel....shooting a gun!!! To set the bullet in motion you have to pull the trigger. In TGM there are 5 basic trigger types.
BTW, the thing about the forearm startdown...you need to develop an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action per 10-19-C...as Tommy says in the Australia video series, the left hip will react to the action of the right forearm. Tommy's student (Mark Evershed)calls it the "Quiet Body" action, I call it the "Reactive Body" or Hip Action. Both the Hips and Right Shoulder respond to the triggering action of the Muscles of both forearms. Even with a 10-20-C triggering action the hips still lead the shoulders. As Tommy said in his GI interview, there is no seperation between the hips and shoulders.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 02-17-2010 at 10:04 PM.
) I like what TT says. To tout his expertise as without peer is admirable from a loyalty point of view, but I think it ultimately marginalizes Tom Tomasello in the eyes of many in light of our benefactor's (Yoda) vast knowledge. Lynn certainly does not have to defend his prowess, it literally speaks for itself. A true TGM savant is not married to a methodology, ultimately honoring Homer's intent. For TT it may have been a hit and miss kind of thing. I think he had an aversion to hitting, which I think has some real advantages. It is tough to be objective, most everybody picks favorites. I found Homer's reluctance to speak adamantly about what he preferred to be quite irritating! Now I appreciate why. Like 10-20-E? Then utilize 10-20-E!
Hybrid Mode
