O.B,
Great Post. I love the Term “Comparatively Squared Away”.
From the Top of the Backstroke to Impact, Hogans shoulders Rotated 90 degrees while his Hips Rotated 75 degrees. Did his Hip Turn slow down allowing his shoulders to catch up? or Did His Right Shoulder accelerate, thus gaining on his Hips?
The following Vapid Post tries to answer this question:
The Farther the Right Shoulder is Driven Down-plane before Release (the left Shoulder moves correspondingly Up-Plane), the greater the Right Elbow Bend at Release. The Greater the Right Elbow Bend at Release, the Farther Forward the Hands can be at Impact and reach the Line-of-sight to the ball without the risk of Running-Out-Of-Right-Arm at Impact.
If the Left Shoulder leaves the Plane while the Right Shoulder is moving Down-plane, then the “off the Plane” rotation will cause the Player to Bend the Plane-Line.
Notice in the BH illustration that while both the Right and Left shoulders rotate On-Plane, there is 0 degree horizontal rotation. The Shoulders have rotated open 45 degrees to the Target, while the Hips are open 30 Horizontal degrees to the Target. I think the Hips still lead and drive the Right Shoulder through the Impact Interval. BH's hips are turned 45 degrees at the Top of his Backstroke while his shoulders are turned 90 degrees. So, one Question is: Did his Hips slow, allowing his right shoulder to catch-up? Or, did Hogans Right Shoulder Accelerate Down-plane? If his Right Should accelerated, then the thrust applied to them from the Top of the swing remained constant during the Downstroke sequence. In other words, his rate of Hip turn wouldn't slow down, but rather speed up. This is possible because the Hips Slide (Slower rate of rotation), then Turn (sharper rate of rotation).
If the Right Shoulder is Driven Down-Plane by Hip Action, then slowing or stopping Hip Action prevents Right Shoulder acceleration.
Holding a Ball in your hand out the window of a car traveling 50 MPH, then slamming on the brakes, and then throwing the ball, isn't "Launching Pad" or "Flywheel Spinning". Even Thrust is needed for the Right shoulder to accelerate into the Release Interval, which requires the Hip Turn to increase speed. Hip speed is increased by changing its rate of Turn, not by using muscular effort to fling the Hips toward the Target.
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O.B. Ya know, if you were born in the US, then you may qualify for our new National Health Care system. That's the Ultimate Choice. You can choose to wait in line in Canada or wait in line in the USA.
In the Shells WWOG lesson, Hogan demonstrates what we'd term a Startdown Waggle and talks about how its the "movement of the lower body", the "knees and hips", "not the shoulders". And goes on to take the club all the way down to Release with an apparent Turning motion.
In his slow motion drills, The Coleman tape for instance he shows a similar lower body turn with no shoulder action or independent movement even in Startdown and Downswing and does it in such a manner that the clubshaft gets really stuck behind him and off plane.
Im wondering if this is a slight exaggeration, a feel maybe but not a real? What do you guys think?
Although he did get the club laid off a tad in transition sometimes when actually swinging, Im thinking that he got the sequence , the next component above the Hips the Shoulders going earlier than Release, Actively (Shoulder Throw) or otherwise. This would be consistent with his chain action theory wouldnt it?
Homer made a serious study of this motion. He thought Hogan was the "Ideal" in terms of Pivot and CF. He thought Hogan spun the fly wheel and then having set the whole thing in motion had no choice but to just let er go...........that he could fall asleep and still end up hitting the ball.
An early , over the top firing of the Shoulders is a 6-M-1 wrecker for sure............but what about an effort to turn the Hips to pull the Shoulders deep into the swing? Is that a Sequence wrecker too? Dont the Hips have to give way to the next component, the Shoulders if your using 6-M-1? After the quick initial acceleration is it even possible to maintain the Hips rate of turning, acceleration? If no then the Shoulders are coming on stream whether your spinning the Hips hard or not. The force, in its ground up 6-M-1 Downswing Sequence pathway has passed from Hips to Shoulder to Arms to Hands to clubhead already by impact .............so what is the continued effort to make the Hips pull the Shoulders accomplishing? And even if you could maintain the Hips rate of turning to pull the Shoulders all the way down to Impact would that not mean that you have yet to Release? Where is the clubface then? You'd making contact with all the Power Accumulators fully loaded. What if they are the same at Separation?
The Hips for some guys may be very open at impact but this doesnt mean they are still pulling the Shoulders to my mind. Its a residual. They did have a running start after all being less turned at Top than the Shoulders. Heck you could turn the Hips and Shoulders together as a unit from Top and arrive at Impact with the Hips relatively open and having had zero hip pull.
Its a co ordinated sequence. Like whip cracking or towel snapping or whatever. You have to let the force pass on to the next component. The Hips go and then slow, they work and then coast. We dont consciously slow them they just do it on their own. They cant maintain the pull, so the Shoulders go no matter what. No second firing , no constant spinning required , no braking. Although a firm left side and balance are alway welcome.
After the Shoulders go the Left Arm separates, #4 fires. Whether your Shoulders are still moving forward or not. Same deal. Its a multi levered sequence.
Making "High School hip action" an exaggerated , sequence and balance damaging .....affectation. Unless of course the co-eds like it which would be another consideration all together.
I have super 8 film of my swing when i was about 15 or so back in the seventies ........showed it to TEd recently ............man its funny. Ted wondered how I was able to see the ball through all that hair. My back aches just looking at that reverse C swing today.
The Hips for some guys may be very open at impact but this doesnt mean they are still pulling the Shoulders to my mind. Its a residual. They did have a running start after all being less turned at Top than the Shoulders. Heck you could turn the Hips and Shoulders together as a unit from Top and arrive at Impact with the Hips relatively open and having had zero hip pull.
I agree with that. But the Right Shoulder Acceleration Interval is lengthened by the amount of Hip Rotation.
Two cheeks for sure and interesting given that Toms and Trevino are generally considered to be Thrusters.
But what do you see D?
I see all these guys releasing into the ball. Do you see the Hips still pulling the shoulders here? They're open for sure, they havent been overtaken by the Shoulders yet. But Id say their Sequence has long since passed the Hip firing , active turning, hip work period.
If Hip work is critical to power then how do we explain guys that can hit it 280 off their knees? Take away their Arms in some way and youd have placed a serious restriction on their power though I bet. Who would hit it further a guy off his knees or a guy on his feet but with his arms strapped to his body? Homer had Zone 2 as Power right?
What are we supposed to be talking about again? Oh yah, how far ahead do the Hips need to be? Must they be? Why? What do those things do anyways? Im thinking that they provide the initial spin to the flywheel.
Me personally Ive got a lazy set of Hips. Lynn thinks its residual from my hockey slap shot, which makes a ton of sense to me. He kind of blew me away with that insight actually. You cant spin the hips when taking a slap shot , your loaded edges wont allow it, its all shoulders and arms , hitting across your body. And interestingly often accompanied with a Greg Norman like backward right foot drag.
I completely agree again. Look at the Right Shoulders in the Pics above. They are all On-plane at Impact. I doubt that you'll find a Professional Golfer that doesn't have an On-Plane Right Shoulder at Impact.
The Pivot moves to keep the Right Shoulder and #3 PP On-plane. Accumulators generate Power.
Hip Action driving the Right Shoulder Downplane is a Power Package Alignment issue. At Impact, it would be easier if the Right Shoulder, Right Elbow and #3 Pressure Point were all On-Plane.
When Hip Action Stops, the Right Shoulder moves off plane; Horizontal, above Plane.
Hip Motion allows the Shoulders to turn. Hip Action directs them by Driving the Right Shoulder On-Plane, Down-Plane.
Cough, Cough.....
If I may rudely interrupt..
Way back at post #1 in this thread I was trying to riddle the use of VJ's dowel drill which he calls "high School Hips".. "we" may have concluded that failure of his test ain't always and for everyone BAD. But I do fail the test and I do think it is a "MESS-UP" that I should try and change. BUT, I do fear it may be a pyrrhic victory.
Cough, Cough.....
If I may rudely interrupt..
Way back at post #1 in this thread I was trying to riddle the use of VJ's dowel drill which he calls "high School Hips".. "we" may have concluded that failure of his test ain't always and for everyone BAD. But I do fail the test and I do think it is a "MESS-UP" that I should try and change. BUT, I do fear it may be a pyrrhic victory.
The Bear again.
I think the Drill will bring instant improvement. It forces you to keep the Hips from sliding too far left and especially forward. The Pivot should maintain its posture. Losing waist/hip bend (Standing up) during the down-stroke forces the right shoulder to flatten and go off plane.
You want Hula-Hula flexibility, not hula hoop Hips. I think the Ben Doyle Drill teaches all of it.
Hi MB66. The amount of Hip Slide needed to keep the Right Shoulder On plane differs. I don't know about the Turn part of it. Great question.
Would the elbow plan swinger need greater hip rotation through impact than the TSP???
Not D but I play him on TV.
Im thinking an Elbow Plane guy probably has a really strong sense of turning, Pivoting through the shot, a strong sense for the #4 pp , he's Arc of Approach, Wheel Rim, maybe has a feel for some rolling of #3 angle too. So yeah, Hip turn and feel for sure Id say. One Hip turn though, not two firings or whatever.
I know there's a really popular teacher who advocates swinging left on the Elbow Plane, a refiring of the hips and using the Angle of Approach but .....arent those kinda mutually exclusive? How do you get your clubhead to go out to right field and swing left at the same time? How do you see a wheel track on the elbow plane unless your eyeballs are in your elbow? How do you re fire the Hips? Even if you could re fire them , could they get in front of the Shoulders and start to pull them again?
Sorry for the digression .......Daryl brings back a lot of misty water color memories.
Hybrid Mode
