I have a feeling that we're often misinterpretating the various planes involved because we wrongly assume that the plane line equals the target line. "Turning left" can simply mean striking the ball a good while before low point, when the club is moving down, forward and out. And it takes an open plane line to produce a divot that goes down the target line.
When I do air swings in front of the mirror with a wedge, I swing from TSP to TSP if I aim to the right of the mirror. If I aim straight at the mirror I look steep & high in the back swing and really flatt in the follow thru. And the hands start turning left before the ball is struck. I am pretty sure that I do the same on most strokes when I play too. But perhaps not with the driver.
Some golfers have a Finish that can make you think they never re planed the club after Follow Through but photos often tell a different story. Mr Palmer for example or Moe even. The photos below are from an impromptu demonstration Moe did at the 1984 Canadian Open hosted by Glenn Abbey G.C. A place from which I have some very fond memories. See that bunker deep in the distance at the end of the range? Yoda's been there.
Please get me to the plane that meets these requirements at impact. Rffw on plane, rf on plane, left fw, left wrist level, tracing??
I have been under the impression that the alignments at impact are( SHOULD BE) elbow plane. Am I wrong?
This topic needs a "starting alignment" . Impact is the ONLY critical alignment, whatever anyone "agrees" it is/should be. How the golfer gets to and from impact alignment is important but not as critical.
The Bear
Last edited by HungryBear : 12-13-2010 at 08:26 AM.
TSP or EP at impact is a matter of choise I believe.
I believe Daryl prefers and uses TSP for impact as well. Moe Norman was TSP. But most top golfers today seem to be on EP.
I do not understand how to get to impact with the right forearm on plane and the left wrist level and tracing(with #3 pp)??
Is impact fix a TSP setup? Or an EP setup? Does the shaft lie on a plane through your shoulder at impact? or your elbow? Can you do this without a ZERO accumulator #3?? If it can be done please show the alignments required to get there because I can not visualize them? Thanks.
I would "think" the "exit plane" would depend on the alignment and physics that procede it? The impact fix would "seem" to be an alignment that everyone can identify with precision. Then follow through alignments are , dependent on hinge action, fairly well defined alignments. Then there is physics that take you beyond followthrough and then manipulation takes over????
O.B.Left- I am very excited about your "EXIT" thread. There is an "humungus" pile of material that can be considered. You will probably have to tell me to SHUT UP, so, at your discretion!
The Bear
Last edited by HungryBear : 12-13-2010 at 11:35 AM.
Bear, perhaps your problem relates to the definition of Elbow Plane. There is to my knowledge only one Elbow Plane which is defined as the point where the Right Elbow would touch the body. Plane and simple. However it is possible to get the Right Forearm on a Plane, a Shaft Plane, which is higher than the Elbow Plane at Address or Impact. Homer liked this bit of business as it lent itself to the possibility of zero shift. Given his strong preference for a TSP Angle in Startdown , Zero shift would ideally be started and finished on a TSP with the Right Forearm on this Plane as well at Fix and Impact.
That being said its a bit "ungolf like" if you will. And so we are left to what I believe to be the practical ideal......what I term "minimal shift". The Right Forearm lies on a Shaft Plane which is above Elbow Plane but below TSP at Address with the TSP you locate being the flattest you can comfortably locate ......which isnt all that flat really. "Flat Back" turn of the Right Shoulder. From a DTL view you are minimizing the degrees of shift necessary be it a Single or Double or Triple shift.
Bear, If you are trying to drop to a lower Elbow Plane and not getting there.......try something higher but with the Right Forearm on that Plane. Minimize your Shift in terms of degrees from DTL or take out a shift even. Go Single Shift instead of Double. The level Left Wrist at Address , the on Plane Right Forearm ....work on your Arm Set at Address. Its structure is sturdy. Hit little chips and pitches with just your RFFW attached to the club, you'll feel its structure which you can use Swinging or Hitting. The problem most people have with the Arm Set is that their Left Wrist is not Level at Address. Simply put, to raise your Right Forearm to the Shaft Plane merely Level your Left Wrist. There is often some stiffness or built in #2 Angle at the Left Wrist which is inhibiting the correct Arm Set.
Bear, perhaps your problem relates to the definition of Elbow Plane. There is to my knowledge only one Elbow Plane which is defined as the point where the Right Elbow would touch the body. Plane and simple. However it is possible to get the Right Forearm on a Plane, a Shaft Plane, which is higher than the Elbow Plane at Address or Impact. Homer liked this bit of business as it lent itself to the possibility of zero shift. Given his strong preference for a TSP Angle in Startdown , Zero shift would ideally be started and finished on a TSP with the Right Forearm on this Plane as well at Fix and Impact.
That being said its a bit "ungolf like" if you will. And so we are left to what I believe to be the practical ideal......what I term "minimal shift". The Right Forearm lies on a Shaft Plane which is above Elbow Plane but below TSP at Address with the TSP you locate being the flattest you can comfortably locate ......which isnt all that flat really. "Flat Back" turn of the Right Shoulder. From a DTL view you are minimizing the degrees of shift necessary be it a Single or Double or Triple shift.
Bear, If you are trying to drop to a lower Elbow Plane and not getting there.......try something higher but with the Right Forearm on that Plane. Minimize your Shift in terms of degrees from DTL or take out a shift even. Go Single Shift instead of Double. The level Left Wrist at Address , the on Plane Right Forearm ....work on your Arm Set at Address. Its structure is sturdy. Hit little chips and pitches with just your RFFW attached to the club, you'll feel its structure which you can use Swinging or Hitting. The problem most people have with the Arm Set is that their Left Wrist is not Level at Address. Simply put, to raise your Right Forearm to the Shaft Plane merely Level your Left Wrist. There is often some stiffness or built in #2 Angle at the Left Wrist which is inhibiting the correct Arm Set.
Thanks O.B.
The problem , as I see it, is the talk about planes is almost always relating Basic Plane's , 7-6 but we are talking about the down swing plane(s) 7-23, delivery path. As I see it, 7-23 paragraph 3 (6th edit.) must be read with care. It says, at least to me, that if you have accumulators #2 and #3 then you have elbow plane to the extent they are used.
It isn't hard for me to get there but I am sure that will stand the hair up on the back of a lot of necks. Shouldn't have said that but it is likely true.??
TSP or EP at impact is a matter of choise I believe.
I believe Daryl prefers and uses TSP for impact as well. Moe Norman was TSP. But most top golfers today seem to be on EP.
If he is, then I'll search that out to see if you've written about following Moe's TSP.
Unless, you'd like to start a thread. If you don't do it in a day. I'll add it to my "Learning and Teaching...."
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Enjoying the action from afar, guys. Keep it going!
Dont get too far away , we're close to calling in a life line here.
Lynn, Homer's appreciation for and definition of the Elbow Plane evolved over the editions, I believe. The paragraph Hungry Bear astutely referenced from the 6th seems to be incongruous with the definition of the Elbow Plane from the 6th in regard to there being a range of possible Plane Angles for the Elbow Plane. At least as I read it. Maybe I read wrong. It is consistent with the definition of the Elbow Plane from the first edition however. Could there be an editorial "situation" going on here?
From the first edition:
Quote:
10-6-A. ELBOW The location of the Elbow during Impact is the reference point used for this Plane Angle. This alignment not only allows the Right Forearm to move On Plane through the Impact but also allows the torso to be postioned at righ angles to the Plane --which are the unexcelled alignments for Right Arm Power and Control.
Which to me implies there can be a range of Elbow Plane Angles.
From the sixth edition:
Quote:
10-6-0 GENERAL Basic Plane Angles are classified on the basis of reference points on which the Inclined Plane can be set. Five such settings are considered here – three fixed, one moving, one moveable – each named for its particular reference point. Remember the Right Forearm is not “On Plane” unless the Right Elbow also is still – or again – On Plane (2-F).
10-6-A ELBOW Where the Right Elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle. It is the “flattest” normal Plane that will still allow the Right Forearm to be On Plane during Impact. This should produce a very flat Angle of Attack (2-B) with reduced Backspin and should be avoided for Short Shots unless it is also part of your Full Stroke Pattern. The Elbow Plane allows maximum #3 Accumulator requiring earlier Release per 6-N-0. This procedure is executed by the Right Forearm per 7-3 and 10-6-B and Elbow Location per 6-B-3-0-1.
Which seems to change to a fixed location for the Elbow Plane as I read it.
And from the sixth edition 7-23 paragraph 3. page 111. And the first edition , 7-23 paragraph 3 page 61:
Quote:
The Straight Line Path is a simpler procedure than the Angled Line Path. But the latter is very natural movement and has the advantage of the true Elbow Plane through Impact. The former can have a steeper-than-normal Elbow Plane compensated with a reaching-out of the arms and a shifting of the Left Hand Grip that places the Clubshaft in the Cup of the Hand instead of under the heel of the Hand, and the Right Hand Grip adjusted to correspond.
*Bold by me.
In other words by latter day Homer definition is there one Elbow Plane?
Hybrid Mode
