Keep in mind that Rotated can locate a TSP Angle. But generally speaking a steeper turn of the Right Shoulder would, assuming zero shift, require a corresponding unusually high Elbow Plane.........Im using the definition of Elbow Plane as any plane you can get your Right Elbow or Forearm on here as opposed to what Homer sometimes termed the "true" Elbow Plane.
So, if my thinking is correct (which is often a big consideration), assuming zero shift, a Lower TSP angle, one that better matches up with a more common Impact Plane Angle or Elbow Plane would be better no? Match your TSP to your desired impact Plane Angle rather than vice versa assuming zero shift. Or in the case of a shift down to a lower plane for impact, require a more minimal shift to get to that Elbow Plane. Minimal being better theoretically speaking despite the big shifting Jim Furyks of the world.
All of this getting us into the Standard Shoulder Turn world........"flat back and then down plane" with the Right Shoulder.
Thats my take on it anyways. Lynn just puts a long dowel beside his right side representing his desired Plane Angle (zero shift) and then takes his Right Shoulder back to it or as close to it as he can anyways (requiring a shift). Its "flat" but its not necessarily flat to the ground and the associated TSP angle he gets his Hands and Right Shoulder on isnt really all that "flat" looking to the eye.
I dunno. Im calling in a life line.........breaker, breaker Lynn Blake, good buddy come on?
What "locates" the TSP, is it the hands, the tip of the right shoulder?
Originally Posted by O.B.Left
zero shift require a corresponding high Elbow Plane
So one locates the TSP off the rotated shoulder plane, zero shifts, how can they get down to a plane lower than the TSP at impact without shifting? Trouble visualizing this.
Originally Posted by O.B.Left
Match your TSP to your desired impact Plane Angle rather than vice versa
What is the procedure for this, again it makes sense but I just take the club to the top and turn, how does one complete a desired TSP to impact?
Originally Posted by O.B.Left
Or in the case of a shift down to a lower plane for impact, require a more minimal shift to get to that Elbow Plane. Minimal being better theoretically speaking despite the big shifting Jim Furyks of the world.
Does this mean if you are going to use an elbow plane impact ideally you are as close to a elbow plane backswing, flatter that is, like Hogan?
Thanks just trying to understand. I swing flat back and under the plane on the downswing so I am constantly in search of something to fix this.
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"The only real shortcuts are more and more know how"...TGM
Thanks just trying to understand. I swing flat back and under the plane on the downswing so I am constantly in search of something to fix this.
I think if you are swinging on the TSP vs elbow plane, with a zero shift (still shifting from elbow to TSP but its a small shift) you dont have to worry about shifting back down to the elbow plane. Think of Phil or Jack, if you look at where the shaft is half way down, its disecting their upper arm, its not lined up to the rt forearm like Hogan, Sergio,Trevino (DTL view)
but I digress...still trying to figure out the flat vs rotaed shoulder turn, and our friend OB is doing his best to help see the benefit of ...thanks OB!
Where's Kevin? I think he has been moving to more of steeper shoulder turn BS w/ good results
I think if you are swinging on the TSP vs elbow plane, with a zero shift (still shifting from elbow to TSP but its a small shift) you dont have to worry about shifting back down to the elbow plane. Think of Phil or Jack, if you look at where the shaft is half way down, its disecting their upper arm, its not lined up to the rt forearm like Hogan, Sergio,Trevino (DTL view)
but I digress...still trying to figure out the flat vs rotaed shoulder turn, and our friend OB is doing his best to help see the benefit of ...thanks OB!
Where's Kevin? I think he has been moving to more of steeper shoulder turn BS w/ good results
I'm watching and listening...
I have been moving to a "feel" of a rotated shoulder turn as my shoulders were staying too level for my set up. I stoop a lot more than Lynn. I'm trying to fix that as well, but it's a process. I think the more you are bent over from the waist, the steeper the shoulder turn will look...
I would like to hear from the boss if that is following the proper path...
Kevin
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
I have been moving to a "feel" of a rotated shoulder turn as my shoulders were staying too level for my set up. I stoop a lot more than Lynn. I'm trying to fix that as well, but it's a process. I think the more you are bent over from the waist, the steeper the shoulder turn will look...
I would like to hear from the boss if that is following the proper path...
Kevin
thanks for chiming in Kev. Could definately see how bending over more would give you the look of a steeper turn. I need to go back and check the AG dvd to see what Lynn says about about posture. Brian G, and Jeff seem to stand pretty tall to the ball, thus giving a flatter "look"
In my Cuscowilla notes Lynn says ""Homer said number one reasons golfers don't improve is right hip doesn't clear in start up. Stack and tilt - their deal is left shoulder goes down. Start on hands plane and then go to elbow plane. This is very flat. He talked about the shoulder supporting hands on same plane. But is stack and tilt right shoulder does a different way. In TGM the idea is to put the right shoulder on plane. that plane is behind you not up high. In the backstroke the hands have been on the plane all the time, the shoulder is getting there, getting there. Now when the hands are right shoulder high both of then are joined together. Then you can take back further - that is fine. Then trace right down that base line. He showed a picture of Larry Nelson with his centered head at start down. There is a big element in the golf machine that says sit and tilt. Remember you put the shoulder on the plane and leave it there. When the weight goes left that tilts the spine. That allows you to leave it on the plane. It doesn't go back where it started from (address). That is flat shoulder turn 10-13-b. Establish head and hand position at fix then you come back to adjusted address. Now guess what? No bobbing required. He pointed out Larry Nelson picture - "that is all the tilt you need". Any mnore tilt than that will send you under plane. You see it everywhere - sit and tilt. NO! your shoulder was already on plane. Don't want to tilt under it. The proper move permits you to drive it at the ball - Destroy the ball with your right shoulder. So we have the shoulder turned back and that permits it to go at the ball rather than back to its address position. My notes of Lynn Blake October 2008 Cuscowilla
good stuff David....Im not discounting S&T and the steeper turn, it works for Charlie Wi, but Im not Charlie. I need a procedure that is repeatable, for some S&T may be just that, but I love the idea of being able to fire my on plane rt shoulder at the ball w/out having to drop the club back onto the elbow plane. A LOT of great players do/did make that shift, but Im just looking for solid ball striking w/out compensations, and it seems playing off the TSP for ME is the way to go....
........ In the backstroke the hands have been on the plane all the time, the shoulder is getting there, getting there. Now when the hands are right shoulder high both of then are joined together. Then you can take back further - that is fine. Then trace right down that base line. .........
That describes my feel.
In a previous sentence you stated "Homer said number one reasons golfers don't improve is right hip doesn't clear in start up".
Did he mean that the Right Hip blocked the Right Elbow and that golfers should move the right hip out of the way of the right elbow or was he saying that Golfers don't know how to get passed the Right Hip when using a Right Forearm Takeaway?
I think that "enough" consideration of component compatability is often lost! Compatability? Although components may have numerous variations their Compatability with preceeding and following componentn variations gets lost. This thread may be a fine example of that. Shoulder action, hip action etc. are likely very dependent on , such as, Address position, Adjusted?, FIX, etc. and very dependent on elbow position, Pitch?, Punch?, etc. So I more likely think to myself "how does that component variation selection FIT between the "bookend" components (with their selected variation). HK I am sure you said that, in a very articulate way, probably in the Preface. But I aint't gona look for it BECAUSE I think that EVERYONE should REDISCOVER that on their own.
Hybrid Mode
