I've read the many excellent posts on this thread and am happy to comment. Not sure where to jump in!
If you have a question you feel is unanswered -- or answered less than adequately -- please post, and I'll do my best to supply.
One of the latest issues is whether or not the Hands are On Plane from Release to Follow through.
This discussion seems to center around the definition of "Plane". One of us seems to think that the "Plane" intersects the Left Shoulder and the Ball and therefore the Hands are "Off Plane" at Impact any time the Primary Lever is not in a straight line (no elbow bend, zero wrist cock, with the club shaft running up the arm kind of straight).
Although I've tried to help by offering Homer Kelley quotations and a beautifully written synopsis of the 3 major Planes and how they're aligned in the Golf Swing, I've been painfully unsuccessful.
Could you recommend a Doctor and Medical Clinic? For me. There's no hope for him.
One of the latest issues is whether or not the Hands are On Plane from Release to Follow through.
This discussion seems to center around the definition of "Plane". One of us seems to think that the "Plane" intersects the Left Shoulder and the Ball and therefore the Hands are "Off Plane" at Impact any time the Primary Lever is not in a straight line (no elbow bend, zero wrist cock, with the club shaft running up the arm kind of straight).
Although I've tried to help by offering Homer Kelley quotations and a beautifully written synopsis of the 3 major Planes and how they're aligned in the Golf Swing, I've been painfully unsuccessful.
Could you recommend a Doctor and Medical Clinic? For me. There's no hope for him.
In the book Homer assumes the shaft or more correctly the LCOG (from #3pp to Sweetpot) to travel the inclined plane for plane compliance. But in the audio tapes he discusses a procedure where the Clubhead only travels the Inclined Plane. This latter procedure allows the Clubhead to travel up the Turned Shoulder Plane immediately in Startup . Making for a Clubhead only Inclined Plane of motion with no shift necessary and leaving the Hands beneath the Inclined Plane in Startup. (Not my cup of tea BTW and not what Lynn teaches his students). He also stated that the clubhead only plane of motion was a necessity for complying with the true Angle of Approach Procedure. "Its a clubhead only plane of motion" said Homer. "A Vertical Plane " , "well almost vertical".
But ...... this is probably of little use to anyone except those trying to fully understand the GEOMETRY of the true Angle of Approach PROCEDURE. So far historically , there are probably only a handful of people in that group. Maybe less. Maybe only one, Homer himself. Ted Fort has used the "true" Angle of Approach Procedure in professional tournament play.
BTW it could be argued that everything has an "angle of approach" ... the Right Forearm, the right hip, the right knee , the left testaclese assuming you have one ... Lets not confuse the true Delivery Line of the ClubHEAD Angle of Approach Procedure with any other components "angle of approach", Right Forearm or or or .....Molson Muscle (beer belly).
Short version , if you''re swinging and using a lot of turning and letting things free wheel , unmanipulated so to speak, you are probably planing the LCOG , Sweetspot Plane and thats what we should assume when discussing this the most common of golf procedures. With a Right Forearm angle of approach in mind or a left side Primary Lever Flail action or whatever.
So -many planes:
Get them all "guessed" at FIX and they all change at impact.
Here is a big one.
COG pull causes toe down at speed.
The shaft is now bent in an arc.
the grip now points, not at the hossel, not at the cog but, because it is a tangent to the arc of the bent shaft caused at toe down, out beyond the toe of the clubhead. But how much? What is the correction? how is it added? Tell me what becomes the feel at pp #3?
Not an Easy Riddle.
Hint- I have posted the solution as I see it some time ago.
In the book Homer assumes the shaft or more correctly the LCOG (from #3pp to Sweetpot) to travel the inclined plane for plane compliance. But in the audio tapes he discusses a procedure where the Clubhead only travels the Inclined Plane. This latter procedure allows the Clubhead to travel up the Turned Shoulder Plane immediately in Startup . Making for a Clubhead only Inclined Plane of motion with no shift necessary and leaving the Hands beneath the Inclined Plane in Startup. (Not my cup of tea BTW and not what Lynn teaches his students). He also stated that the clubhead only plane of motion was a necessity for complying with the true Angle of Approach Procedure. "Its a clubhead only plane of motion" said Homer. "A Vertical Plane " , "well almost vertical".
But ...... this is probably of little use to anyone except those trying to fully understand the GEOMETRY of the true Angle of Approach PROCEDURE. So far historically , there are probably only a handful of people in that group. Maybe less. Maybe only one, Homer himself. Ted Fort has used the "true" Angle of Approach Procedure in professional tournament play.
To illustrate the ideas behind the swing plane, I tried once to explain the Angle of Approach procedure in a general golf forum. To say the least I had very little success !
In the book Homer assumes the shaft or more correctly the LCOG (from #3pp to Sweetpot) to travel the inclined plane for plane compliance. But in the audio tapes he discusses a procedure where the Clubhead only travels the Inclined Plane. This latter procedure allows the Clubhead to travel up the Turned Shoulder Plane immediately in Startup . Making for a Clubhead only Inclined Plane of motion with no shift necessary and leaving the Hands beneath the Inclined Plane in Startup. (Not my cup of tea BTW and not what Lynn teaches his students). He also stated that the clubhead only plane of motion was a necessity for complying with the true Angle of Approach Procedure. "Its a clubhead only plane of motion" said Homer. "A Vertical Plane " , "well almost vertical".
But ...... this is probably of little use to anyone except those trying to fully understand the GEOMETRY of the true Angle of Approach PROCEDURE. So far historically , there are probably only a handful of people in that group. Maybe less. Maybe only one, Homer himself. Ted Fort has used the "true" Angle of Approach Procedure in professional tournament play.
BTW it could be argued that everything has an "angle of approach" ... the Right Forearm, the right hip, the right knee , the left testaclese assuming you have one ... Lets not confuse the true Delivery Line of the ClubHEAD Angle of Approach Procedure with any other components "angle of approach", Right Forearm or or or .....Molson Muscle (beer belly).
Short version , if you''re swinging and using a lot of turning and letting things free wheel , unmanipulated so to speak, you are probably planing the LCOG , Sweetspot Plane and thats what we should assume when discussing this the most common of golf procedures. With a Right Forearm angle of approach in mind or a left side Primary Lever Flail action or whatever.
We can restrict the scope to the Impact Interval because Ball response depends on that.
The Lie Angle of the Club affects direction. If the Hands are too low, then the ball goes Left, if too high then the ball goes right. It's named "Swing Plane" because we will Swing the Club along this Plane.
So the Swing Plane is built-in to the club, and it's normally somewhere between the Shoulder and Elbow planes. Our job begins by aligning the ball, low point and the target to this plane. Low point and target are already reconciled. Just get the ball right.
Ben Hogan, in his book "Five Lessons" made an obvious mistake and he himself contradicted this illustration in numerous interviews and demonstrations.
We can restrict the scope to the Impact Interval because Ball response depends on that.
The Lie Angle of the Club affects direction. If the Hands are too low, then the ball goes Left, if too high then the ball goes right. It's named "Swing Plane" because we will Swing the Club along this Plane.
So the Swing Plane is built-in to the club, and it's normally somewhere between the Shoulder and Elbow planes. Our job begins by aligning the ball, low point and the target to this plane. Low point and target are already reconciled. Just get the ball right.
Ben Hogan, in his book "Five Lessons" made an obvious mistake and he himself contradicted this illustration in numerous interviews and demonstrations.
Isn't that pix Hogan at address? what was Hogans mistake?
HB
Isn't that pix Hogan at address? what was Hogans mistake?
HB
One point to make is that there are 3 Planes. Left Arm Wedge, Right Forearm Flying Wedge and Swing Plane. Although its possible to align the Flying Wedges at 90 degrees and thus have the Club on both of these Planes simultaneously, the Left Arm Wedge Plane is Opening and Closing (Turning and Rolling) and cannot directly move the Club along the Swing Plane. It can do so under the guidance of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge.
I've been talking about hand paths in the context of the Turned Shoulder Plane because it's the most common, but let's look at the Turning SP - the version with vertical moving arms. Homer says the hands trace a line on the ground INSIDE the base line, so in this case, the hand path NEVER lies in the Swing Plane, unlike the Turned SP in which the hands trace the baseline from the Top.
Hogan's plane - the pane of glass was just an upper bound under which the club head must remain. In the second pic, you have correctly traced the elbow swing plane in red. But in the last two photos, you have traced the shaft, not the Sweetspot Plane which goes through the ball, and under which the hands lie, and this happens even though he has very high hands through impact. Also, that's not impact in the left photo - his hands move dramatically left at and after impact. There are many rotary swingers who's left wrists are not quite uncocked to the level position and so their hands are much more under the elbow swing plane than Hogan's.
Last edited by MizunoJoe : 12-09-2012 at 11:38 AM.
Hybrid Mode
