I have attempted the Tomasello "right arm throw" action on many occasions. I have found that it only works well when I use an "arm swing" style rather than a "body-swing" style, where the rotating torso drives the swing ala Hogan. Any attempt to blend the two (swinger's "pull" action secondary to a downswing pivot action powering/releasing power accumulators #4 and #2 and a hitter's "push" action due to an active right arm throw action powering/releasing power accumulators #4 and #2) results in switting, which is very problematic in terms of generating a smoothly executed clubhead swing path.
Understood. It's the opposite feeling to mine since I have found that RAS is a great pattern that combines power of the right forearm while subduing the motion to the pivot. But, hey, wit would be dull if we all were the same.
You also wrote-: "However, I have a feeling (please correct me if I am wrong) that a person who tends to use angled hinging post-impact, must square the clubhead earlier before impact as well."
I don't exactly know what you mean by squaring the clubface earlier by impact? Are you referring to squaring it to the ball-target line or to the clubhead arc? Either way, I think that the clubface should never be squared before impact, and the clubface must always be slightly open to the ball-target line and the clubhead arc in the few inches before the clubface impacts the ball - whether using angled hinging or horizontal hinging.
Jeff, when I say square I always mean squaring to the swing arc (never to the target line); note that the clubhead travels from the inside to the inside, that means it is open when coming to the ball and closed after separation simultaneously being square to the swing arc.
By the way, I realise that all clubs have variable degrees of offset, but I have never seen a zero-offset club that didn't have a hook-face relationship between the clubface and the clubshaft. Are you claiming that Hogan's club's clubface was not hook-faced relative to the clubshaft - even if they had zero offset?
Do you have a photo of Hogan's clubs?
Unfortunately, I have not a good photo of Hogan's clubs (only a general view of the bag); however, people on other fora who met The Man and/or were fortunate to hold Hogan's clubs in their hands, say that apart their SW was very high, they were bent open several degrees. Others said that Ben Hogan manufactured his forged blades the way thaey can be bent and even have negative offset, but I can't say if it's true or not.
There are some clubs with minimal or even without offset (e.g. KZG ZO blades) on the market; generally, the more blade-like is the iron the less is the offset.
Finally, I agree that the divot should always be going left after the low point of the clubhead arc - because it reflects the clubhead arc/path that moves inside, upwards, forwards after the low point. However, the clubface has a variable degree of rotation relative to the clubhead's arc during that part of the followthrough (after the low point), depending on whether the golfer uses angled versus horizontal hinging. The first part of the divot reflects the clubhead's movement outwards, downwards and forwards prior to it reaching the low point of its arc, and that part of the divot must be directed minimally right of the target.
You also wrote-: "Horizontal hinging does not have a draw bias. You can slice, fade, draw, hook using horizontal hinging as it really depends on the clubface relationship to clubhead path."
I cannot understand this point. Why would one use horizontal hinging if one deliberately wanted to fade/slice the ball? Secondly, consider a golfer who wants to hit the ball as straight as possible. I presume that you agree that he must have a slightly open clubface at the time of first ball impact, and a square clubface at the time of ball-clubface seperation. So, what type of hinging action would result in a perfectly straight ball flight (with no tendency to fading/drawing) if the clubhead arc is perfectly symmetrical to the ball-target line and the clubface is square to the ball-target line at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation?
Jeff.
I am curious. Why is that grip bad?
Obvsiously, you can integrate a movement with any grip. Is it a grip that someone could play well with? - sure. That said- here is my perspective. To call that grip neutral is a crime really. Historically and even in the Golfing Machine book- that grip is a weak grip- the left thumb is on top of the shaft and not more behind the shaft at impact. There is a reason that historically those terms were used - i.e. strong and weak - in relation to different grips. Weak isn't good.
For golfing machine fanatics that would want to grip the club with the left hand flat, level and vertical- that grip doesn't accomplish that for a normal straight shot with the ball separating at or before lowpoint.
That's my viewpoint.
You also wrote-: "Horizontal hinging does not have a draw bias. You can slice, fade, draw, hook using horizontal hinging as it really depends on the clubface relationship to clubhead path." I cannot understand this point. Why would one use horizontal hinging if one deliberately wanted to fade/slice the ball?
In golfing machine terms- horizontal hinging is the result of a golf swing that uses centrifugal force- that's what creates that amount and type of clubface closing through impact. Since golf swings that use centrifugal force- are no different than other golf swings - they all encounter on course conditions that require fading or drawing the golf ball at times. Therefore alterations are made to the impact conditions that create fading and drawing - while the motion the face makes through impact is still horizontal hinging created by centrifugal force. At least that would be "your" golf machine answer in a nutshell.
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I can readily accept the idea that horizontal hinging occurs naturally when a golf club releases naturally in a swinger's action. However, you didn't answer my two questions.
i) Why would a swinger employ horizontal, rather than angled hinging, if he wants to fade/slice the ball?
11) What type of hinging action will result in a perfectly straight ball flight if the clubhead arc is perfectly symmetrical to the ball-target line and the clubface is square to the ball-target line at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation?
I presume that you agree that a neutral grip will mean that the back of the left hand is parallel to the lower edge of the clubface (or lower clubface grooves if the lower clubface edge is rounded) - as demonstrated by Brian Manzella in this photo from an article that he wrote.
Jeff.
Jeff,
I don't have the energy lately to post in detail on a lot of these subjects. You are usually pretty thorough about analyzing golf data. In regards to the photo above- the two yellow lines are parallel to each other - but do you really think that each one represents what it is suppose to represent? I see the leading edge or the equivalent score lines as not lining up with the yellow line. Also, likewise I don't see the yellow line representing the true angle of the left arm? Just camera angles etc. - obviously if someone wants to grip the way he describes it they certainly could.
Regardless of all the details - that is a really weak grip. It appears that Brian Manzella via reading the linked article that you provided has derived that grip by associating it with Arnold Palmer, Tiger Woods, Sam Snead etc. and he has made that determination by noting that at the top of their swings the left wrist matches the angle of the leading edge of the clubface. All I can think of - there must be some poor measurements that were taken to come to that conclusion. To think that Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer had a flat left wrist and leading edge of the clubface that faced the target only at lowpoint- you're kidding me right? Arnold Palmer!? YOU'RE KIDDING ME right?
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As for the '3 right hands', I would suggest that some who are trying to understand this concept, at least as I think I understand it, read John Schlee's "Maximum Golf" and Tom Bertrand's "The Secret of Hogan's Swing".
Add the original Hogan's book and VJ Trolio's "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle".
Leadbetter's book is good for pics as is the DVD series Hogan Collection and one other. But at least for me most of the questions, debated topics can be answered with those 4 books.
Why Hogan had the weakened grip and how he managed to square the clubface with it, the reason for the arms close together, and why he stated others should not use his pictures to learn the golf swing but rather the book. (Thus the reason the still pics and diagram don't always track with his real life motion, cause he had to make adjustments cause of his accident).
Great thread; lots to learn here. Thanks to all who are participating.
Jeff, I understand and agree with your premise regarding the Swinger's passive Right Arm participation. But for me, it does not explain Hogan's desire for "three right hands". In fact, the whole notion of 'passive right arm' conflicts with it.
Here's my view:
As do all good players, Hogan sensed tremendous Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure from Release to the end of the Follow-Through ('Through the Ball' per 7-24). He felt this Lag Pressure (Acceleration Rate / 2-M-2 #1) in his #3 Pressure Point (first joint of the Right Hand forefinger) and wanted more.Alas, since Clubhead Inertia can withstand all the Lag Pressure anyone can generate (7-19), there was no 'more' to get. Thus, with only one right hand, Hogan felt deficient.
Further, though Clubhead Lag Pressure only indirectly drives (7-11) the Club through Impact, it is nonetheless a dominant Feel. In fact, creating and maintaining this Lag Pressure (1-L #7) is no less than The Secret of Golf (6-C-2-0 / - A). And this indirect drive at Pressure Point #3 -- Right Hand -- is transmitted via the passive Power Accumulator #1 -- Right Elbow (6-C-2-C / 10-11-0-3).
All of which explains the Swinger's Feel ("describable sensation" per 1-J and 3-B) of the "stiff-wristed Right Forearm Slap" (Major Basic Stroke / 10-3-B) and the mantra of The Golfing Machine:
Sustain the Lag![3-F-7-B]
Lynn, sorry for bringing this thread from the basement - but it cannot be regarded as complete without your non-TGM translation that your promised
I'm glad you did bring it back up Dariusz J. There's a lot of interesting argument.
Jeff started by saying that Hogan's lower body created the flattening of the left wrist at the start of the downswing. I think John Schlee said that this was a key move for Hogan. Only it was not produced by the lower body but rather by consciously sensing the right thumb and forefinger both fall down, and in, at the start of the downswing. If the arms don't drop I believe this will both flatten the left wrist and lessen the amount of wrist cock he would be playing with through the ball. It gives the appearance of being laid off but not in a bad way I don't think. Would this increase his lag pressure? He may have been using both inertia and gravity.
It may also explain part of the downcocking appearance he gives through the ball. This move is clearly evident in that famous sequence from Andrisani's book.
I find it very interesting that in Modern Fundamentals he says that the right thumb and forefinger are not to be used but then qualifies this warning by saying that they may be used for finesse shots for the better player. I always thought this was referring to the short game and wedge shots but perhaps not.
I'm glad you did bring it back up Dariusz J. There's a lot of interesting argument.
Jeff started by saying that Hogan's lower body created the flattening of the left wrist at the start of the downswing. I think John Schlee said that this was a key move for Hogan. Only it was not produced by the lower body but rather by consciously sensing the right thumb and forefinger both fall down, and in, at the start of the downswing. If the arms don't drop I believe this will both flatten the left wrist and lessen the amount of wrist cock he would be playing with through the ball. It gives the appearance of being laid off but not in a bad way I don't think. Would this increase his lag pressure? He may have been using both inertia and gravity.
It may also explain part of the downcocking appearance he gives through the ball. This move is clearly evident in that famous sequence from Andrisani's book.
I find it very interesting that in Modern Fundamentals he says that the right thumb and forefinger are not to be used but then qualifies this warning by saying that they may be used for finesse shots for the better player. I always thought this was referring to the short game and wedge shots but perhaps not.
have a look at the tom tomasello letters if they are still around which shows a concept on this wrist/forarm throw down and out behind the player...
lower body motion would not make that happen...gravity and a heavy club could but hogan probably was a bit smarter than "hoping for the best"
As far as the 'flattening' of the shaft during startdown (Sergio/Hogan)
"When in doubt TURN the clubface at startdown" (I don't have the book with me for the exact location)
To my eye, Hogan 'Turned' slightly at startdown, so he could 'Roll' at release, giving the appearance of a falling/flattening shaft, and maintaining his left arm flying wedge.
For 'weak' vs 'strong' - keep in mind that the left hand grip, within a range, doesn't really matter in producing a horizontal hinge - it is the left arm flying wedge that matters.
The left arm wedge alignments can be maintained with both a so called 'weak' or 'strong' left hand, with the appropriate compensations in the rest of the machine.
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you're kidding me right? Arnold Palmer!? YOU'RE KIDDING ME right?
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