And "Hogan's approach" is Homer Kelley's Downstroke Sequence of 6-M-1 with its Pivot Delivered Power Package per 6-K-0. Also, the On Plane, Downstroke Right Shoulder Turn Lag and Cleared Right Hip of 6-B-4-C and 7-13; and, the Hip Action of 7-15 "throwing" the Right Shoulder (with its Loaded Power Package in tow) toward Impact.
For those now interested in the amplification of what I just said and in ordering The Book from The Golfing Machine, LLC http://thegolfingmachine.com/theBook/index.php, tell'em "Yoda sent me". No discount, of course, just my own continued personal satisfaction.
As far as Tom Tomasello's approach goes:
[Apologies in advance to Senators Lloyd Bentsen and Dan Quayle.
I served with Tom Tomasello.
I knew Tom Tomasello.
Tom Tomasello was a friend of mine.
And any disciple (however devoted) -- I'm not referring to you, Jeff -- who attributes to Tom an uncocking right elbow from the Top . . . is no Tom Tomasello.
Lynn....
Look no farther than Tommy's GI interview....lever and unlever the right forearm....it's in the interview. Someone please send Lynn a copy of the interview....I'm off to dinner with my girl....won't be back on the internet until Sunday some time.
__________________ Hitting the Ball is the easiest part of the game-hitting it effectively is the most difficult. Why trust instinct when there is a science."1-G.
The one thing about your approach is that you are unwilling, or unable, to describe TT"s right arm throw action in detail.
You make statements that are vague like -: "Then please tell the class why Tommy started the downstroke with everything (uncocking of the right forearm, the right shoulder, the right forearm and left forearm, the left wrist) for full golf swings per the TGM swinging procedure."
What does it mean to say that TT started the downswing with "everything"? Surely you need to explain the sequence of events in great detail?
In your last post, you stated-: "lever and unlever the right forearm." That's not a complete explanation. That's a vague statement.
Don't you think that you should offer a more detailed explanation of TT's "right arm throw action" if you want us to consider it a viable option for swinging a golf club? For example, you make statements like "throw the right arm from the top". Yoda has questioned the rationality of the idea that one can throw the right forearm from the top, and I think that he has a point. When I look at TT's right arm throw action, it reminds me of a person skipping stones. When a person skips stones, I believe that the right forearm throw action only starts after the right arm is adducted to the right side and the right elbow is wedged into the right hip area. In other words, the "right forearm throw" action only starts in earnest when the right hand reaches waist level. There must be a preceding downstroke movement that initiates the stone skipping action - for example, transferring weight to the lead leg with a pivot motion, and bringing the right elbow down to the right side by adducting the right upper arm (which involves right shoulder girdle muscles).
Also, in a stone skipping motion, the right elbow straightens and the right hand releases the stone. However, golf requires the two arms to work together because the two hands conjointly hold the grip end of the club. If the right arm throws the right hand, then the right hand must be moving the left hand because it is conjoined to the left hand at pressure point #1. Therefore, you have to explain what "effect" the right hand has on left hand movement and whether there is also a release of PA#4 via some other mechanism, and whether the right hand movement has to be coordinated with the left hand movement (secondary to the release of PA#4).
Also, here is a capture image of Tiger Woods swing - from the Nike commercial video.
I used a spine tool in my swing analyser program to make a white dot every 10 frames and that works out to one white dot every 1/400th second (because the video frame rate was 4,000 frames/second.) Note that Tiger's left arm speed slows down just before impact, and that allows PA#3 to release completely so that the clubface can be squared at impact. In a "right arm throw" swing, how does a golfer get the hands to slow down just before impact to provide enough time for the complete release of PA#3?
Jeff.
Last edited by Jeff : 11-21-2008 at 11:56 PM.
Reason: I accidently posted while still producing the post.
The one thing about your approach is that you are unwilling, or unable, to describe TT"s right arm throw action in detail.
You make statements that are vague like -: "Then please tell the class why Tommy started the downstroke with everything (uncocking of the right forearm, the right shoulder, the right forearm and left forearm, the left wrist) for full golf swings per the TGM swinging procedure."
What does it mean to say that TT started the downswing with "everything"? Surely you need to explain the sequence of events in great detail?
In your last post, you stated-: "lever and unlever the right forearm." That's not a complete explanation. That's a vague statement.
Don't you think that you should offer a more detailed explanation of TT's "right arm throw action" if you want us to consider it a viable option for swinging a golf club? For example, you make statements like "throw the right arm from the top". Yoda has questioned the rationality of the idea that one can throw the right forearm from the top, and I think that he has a point. When I look at TT's right arm throw action, it reminds me of a person skipping stones. When a person skips stones, I believe that the right forearm throw action only starts after the right arm is adducted to the right side and the right elbow is wedged into the right hip area. In other words, the "right forearm throw" action only starts in earnest when the right hand reaches waist level. There must be a preceding downstroke movement that initiates the stone skipping action - for example, transferring weight to the lead leg with a pivot motion, and bringing the right elbow down to the right side by adducting the right upper arm (which involves right shoulder girdle muscles).
Also, in a stone skipping motion, the right elbow straightens and the right hand releases the stone. However, golf requires the two arms to work together because the two hands conjointly hold the grip end of the club. If the right arm throws the right hand, then the right hand must be moving the left hand because it is conjoined to the left hand at pressure point #1. Therefore, you have to explain what "effect" the right hand has on left hand movement and whether there is also a release of PA#4 via some other mechanism, and whether the right hand movement has to be coordinated with the left hand movement (secondary to the release of PA#4).
Also, here is a capture image of Tiger Woods swing - from the Nike commercial video.
I used a spine tool in my swing analyser program to make a white dot every 10 frames and that works out to one white dot every 1/400th second (because the video frame rate was 4,000 frames/second.) Note that Tiger's left arm speed slows down just before impact, and that allows PA#3 to release completely so that the clubface can be squared at impact. In a "right arm throw" swing, how does a golfer get the hands to slow down just before impact to provide enough time for the complete release of PA#3?
Jeff.
great post Jeff. very interesting. i think my swing at the moment can be explained precisely by your insight into PA#3.
on wednesday i had one of the worst putting rounds of my life, i had 7 three putts and a 79 having hit 13 out of 14 fairways. today i had the same thing happen, on the front 9 i could not miss a fairway if i tried and was hitting it long and yet it was of no use due to complete collapse on the greens. what's my point? well, on the back nine i became very frustrated and started hitting the ball harder and harder. i then missed a couple of fairways to the right and i'm sure not allowing PA#3 to release was the culprit. i thought to myself last night that surely i would not drive this well if i was holing putts because that would just be scary. driving seems so easy sometimes when putting poorly and i think this is through not trying too hard, just letting it happen and not trying to force anything. i think someone wrote in a yellow book that rhythm is essential to a good golf stroke. would an unbending right arm from the top allow such rhythm in a swinging procedure? i doubt it.
When golfers get mad with their swing, they often try harder, and that means
that they often become switters - adding right arm power to their 4:2:3 swinging action.
Adding right arm power can produce two harmful effects as I demonstrate in this next posed photo.
I am using a short child-iron to demonstrate two potentially harmful effects from adding right arm power to a swinger's action.
Image 1 shows the standard swinger's action. As the hands approach impact, the left wrist should be flat and the right wrist should be bent back, and the hands should lead the club into impact. If the kinetic sequencing was correct and the release timing correct, the clubface should become square at impact if PA#3 release is completed properly.
Image 2 shows a golfer trying to add right arm power by palmar flexing the right wrist as the hands approach impact. That's an obvious disaster!
Image 3 shows a golfer trying to add right arm power by actively straightening the right elbow via active right triceps muscle action when the hands reach the delivery position - that action drives the hands through the impact zone too fast and that action interferes with the timely release of PA#3 => open clubface at impact => pushed shots.
that makes a lot of sense Jeff. i also find when swinging too hard i may bend the left arm a little coming down and lead with the left elbow ever so slightly. i wonder if this is only from forcing things and adding PA#1 or a subconscious anti-hook move from going at it too hard. over acceleration is not pretty either way.
The one thing about your approach is that you are unwilling, or unable, to describe TT"s right arm throw action in detail.
You make statements that are vague like -: "Then please tell the class why Tommy started the downstroke with everything (uncocking of the right forearm, the right shoulder, the right forearm and left forearm, the left wrist) for full golf swings per the TGM swinging procedure."
What does it mean to say that TT started the downswing with "everything"? Surely you need to explain the sequence of events in great detail?
In your last post, you stated-: "lever and unlever the right forearm." That's not a complete explanation. That's a vague statement.
Don't you think that you should offer a more detailed explanation of TT's "right arm throw action" if you want us to consider it a viable option for swinging a golf club? For example, you make statements like "throw the right arm from the top". Yoda has questioned the rationality of the idea that one can throw the right forearm from the top, and I think that he has a point. When I look at TT's right arm throw action, it reminds me of a person skipping stones. When a person skips stones, I believe that the right forearm throw action only starts after the right arm is adducted to the right side and the right elbow is wedged into the right hip area. In other words, the "right forearm throw" action only starts in earnest when the right hand reaches waist level. There must be a preceding downstroke movement that initiates the stone skipping action - for example, transferring weight to the lead leg with a pivot motion, and bringing the right elbow down to the right side by adducting the right upper arm (which involves right shoulder girdle muscles).
Also, in a stone skipping motion, the right elbow straightens and the right hand releases the stone. However, golf requires the two arms to work together because the two hands conjointly hold the grip end of the club. If the right arm throws the right hand, then the right hand must be moving the left hand because it is conjoined to the left hand at pressure point #1. Therefore, you have to explain what "effect" the right hand has on left hand movement and whether there is also a release of PA#4 via some other mechanism, and whether the right hand movement has to be coordinated with the left hand movement (secondary to the release of PA#4).
Also, here is a capture image of Tiger Woods swing - from the Nike commercial video.
I used a spine tool in my swing analyser program to make a white dot every 10 frames and that works out to one white dot every 1/400th second (because the video frame rate was 4,000 frames/second.) Note that Tiger's left arm speed slows down just before impact, and that allows PA#3 to release completely so that the clubface can be squared at impact. In a "right arm throw" swing, how does a golfer get the hands to slow down just before impact to provide enough time for the complete release of PA#3?
Jeff.
Jeff,
You wrote....Don't you think that you should offer a more detailed explanation of TT's "right arm throw action" if you want us to consider it a viable option for swinging a golf club? Homer considered it a viable optioin, I have nothing to do with it. The detailed explanation is already in the book, it's under section 7-3.
In the Tomasello interview he said to "lever and unlever the right forearm"....in TGM per 7-3 Homer said to "COCK AND UNCOCK THE RIGHT ELBOW"....it's the same thing. THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM...once you practice the movement it will become a very natual movement. If you're currently a golfer who attempts to generate the swinging procedure starting the club down with the lower body, starting the downswing with the uncocking of the right elbow is going to feel un-natural. In time it won't.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 11-23-2008 at 07:33 PM.
When golfers get mad with their swing, they often try harder, and that means
that they often become switters - adding right arm power to their 4:2:3 swinging action.
Adding right arm power can produce two harmful effects as I demonstrate in this next posed photo.
I am using a short child-iron to demonstrate two potentially harmful effects from adding right arm power to a swinger's action.
Image 1 shows the standard swinger's action. As the hands approach impact, the left wrist should be flat and the right wrist should be bent back, and the hands should lead the club into impact. If the kinetic sequencing was correct and the release timing correct, the clubface should become square at impact if PA#3 release is completed properly.
Image 2 shows a golfer trying to add right arm power by palmar flexing the right wrist as the hands approach impact. That's an obvious disaster!
Image 3 shows a golfer trying to add right arm power by actively straightening the right elbow via active right triceps muscle action when the hands reach the delivery position - that action drives the hands through the impact zone too fast and that action interferes with the timely release of PA#3 => open clubface at impact => pushed shots.
Jeff.
That post is TOTAL BS. No way does the swing with the right arm action that Tom Tomasello taught create a throw-away condition like that...
DG- you wrote-: "That post is TOTAL BS. No way does the swing with the right arm action that Tom Tomasello taught create a throw-away condition like that..."
I never inferred that it did. I merely stated that if a swinger uses a standard 4:2:3 swing pattern that there is a danger to adding right arm push-power at some point in the mid-late downswing. I stated that if one added a very active right elbow straightening action in the late downswing it could push the hands through the impact zone too fast and not provide sufficient time for a complete release of PA#3. I also stated that if one added right arm push-power via a right wrist unbending action in the late downswing it could produce flipping. I wasn't talking about TT's right arm throw action, which is a swing style where the right arm throw starts from the top.
You also stated-: "Homer considered it a viable option, I have nothing to do with it. The detailed explanation is already in the book, it's under section 7-3."
I have read 7-3. I can see no description of TT's right arm throw action in that section. Section 7-3 first deals with the relationship of the right forearm to the left arm flying wedge package in swinger's (arc of approach style) and hitters (angle of approach style) at the top of the swing. In the second half of that section HK talks of the position of the right forearm in the late downswing (whether driven or thrown) and he states-: "ALWAYS for all procedures, the Right Forearm is positioned "On Plane" - pointing at the plane line as the angle of attack. ------- The "Angle of Approach" position of the Right Forearm shows the precise Cross-Line direction the Forearm must take through Impact."
In other words, HK was merely describing the right forearm in relationship to the standard (4:2:3) swinger's action (where the right forearm is thrown) and a standard hitting action (where the right forearm is driven). I cannot identify a description of TT's "right arm throw" action in that section.
I have personally made an attempt to describe TT's "right arm throw" action in TGM terms. I first described it as a triple barrel 1:2:3 swing action. However, Yoda stated that I was incorrect because the "1" should be reserved for a hitting action where the right arm powers the clubshaft through impact via PP#3. TT wasn't describing a hitting action, but a swinging action. I therefore modified my description and called it a RAPF4:2:3 swing action. You are free to state whether you think that my description is right or wrong, and you are free to provide your personal perspective using TGM terminology (describing TT's "right arm throw" action in terms of the loading and release of power accumulators).
B. J. Hathaway, G.S.E.B., M.C.I.
No way does the swing with the right arm action that Tom Tomasello taught create a throw-away condition like that...
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