DG wrote-: "Sorry guys that is incorrect....for a swinging stroke using 10-20-B, the golfer starts the downstroke by uncocking the right elbow through the muscles of the right forearm the pivot responds with a sliding action...then a rotational action during the release phase."
That's anatomically impossible. The right forearm muscles cannot straighten the bent/folded right elbow. That function is performed by the UPPER arm triceps muscle.
Forerarm muscles can only perform the following anatomical actions-:
1) Flex, extend, abduct or adduct the fingers and thumb.
2) Palmarflex or dorsiflex the wrist.
3) Radially deviate or ulnarly deviate the wrist.
4) Pronate or supinate the hand.
Forearm muscles cannot flex or extend the elbow joint because they are distal (peripheral) to the elbow joint.
If anybody contests my opinion, please be so kind to name the right forearm muscle which is "supposedly" capable of straightening the right elbow joint.
Jeff.
It Triggers the straightening (that's part of the "Magic" of the right forearm, it can trigger what I believe is the straightening of the tricep muscle)...if you concentrate on the tricep muscle of the right arm you will over accelerate the golf club and will surely go into a condition of club-head throw-away....remember, section 10-20 is called Trigger Type. Per Tom Tomasello those triggers are downstroke triggers. 5 ways to start the club down. In a one or two year period, I took the time to experiment with using the tricep muscles versus the right forearm....in a week or two of using the tricep muscles, I started to lose the sweet feeling of clubhead lag. Once I went back to using the right forearm the sweet feeling of clubhead lag returned. I did this experiment on two occasions, so I know the difference between using the tricep muscles and using the right forearm. I don't need to know the bio-mechanics, I proved it through trial and error.
Reference the book....in 1-L, it says' "The Right Forearm is always driving" and in Tomasello's Chapter 2 video Tommy says"....drive that right forearm, to a long right arm...". In 6-B-2-0, it reads, "Centifugal Force, Accumlator #1, the muscles of both forearms, any--or all--are available to actuate this assembly". So, what does actuate mean....to activate, to set into motion, put into action. So now can you see the connection between this and the idea of triggering....setting the swing into motion.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 11-21-2008 at 07:54 AM.
i thought TT says lower the right shoulder starting down which then forces the left hip back to where it began. his sequence being... right hip-right forearm--right shoulder-left hip.
i thought TT says lower the right shoulder starting down which then forces the left hip back to where it began. his sequence being... right hip-right forearm--right shoulder-left hip.
In the Australia video that is part of a drill....however, Tommy did teach a 10-20-C swing (Not on any of the videos on this site). Right Shoulder start down. I believe he taught both Sally Little and Jodie Mudd....a 10-20-C swing. We would need Jodie to confirm that?
....remember, section 10-20 is called Trigger Type. Per Tom Tomasello those triggers are downstroke triggers. 5 ways to start the club down.
**************
So now can you see the connection between this and the idea of triggering....setting the swing into motion.
[Bold emphasis added by Yoda.]
Notice to all students of The Golfing Machine:
Component #20 is the RELEASE Trigger, NOT the "downstroke trigger". Accordingly, the five Variations in 10-20 are the five procedures available for triggering the Release of the Power Package, NOT "5 ways to start the club down".
There is no such animal in The Golfing Machine as the "downstroke trigger". Stating otherwise is just plain wrong. And on this point in his Authorized Instructor training, Homer Kelley was adamant:
"Explain the terminology any way you want. But . . . don't replace it!"
Component #20 is the RELEASE Trigger, NOT the "downstroke trigger". Accordingly, the five Variations in 10-20 are the five procedures available for triggering the Release of the Power Package, NOT "5 ways to start the club down".
There is no such animal in The Golfing Machine as the "downstroke trigger". Stating otherwise is just plain wrong. And on this point in his Authorized Instructor training, Homer Kelley was adamant:
"Explain the terminology any way you want. But . . . don't replace it!"
Or, I might add, confuse it.
I think we need to stop confusing the Tommy videos with the facts.
If I re-watch Tommy's Chapt. 2 & 5, maybe the facts will fade away.
Thanks to Jeff and Yoda for clearing up mistatements. I saw Tommy a number of times over the years and I appreciate and respect what he did for TGM. However I find his videos only interesting but not helpful. Lynn is so precise in his explanation and understanding of Homer Kelley's work I will cast my lot with him. Golf is an entertainment for a lifetime. The human body is very complex, I spent my entire life studying its functions. There are many things yet to be discovered about it. If the golf swing was so easy we wouldn't be on this forum discusing it. We must all realize our perceptions of what we do are just not reliable. Our brains and senses are just not trustworthy. The forearm is truly magical. When we trace the plane line all of the muscles proximal to the elbow are working in concert as well as some in the shoulder girdle and don't forget if we are pivoting the core muscles. Now if your abs are weak you use other muscles in a compensatory manner to perform the same function. If you have no buns you have to find alternative ways to move. Since I am a physcian, I tried to understand the specific muscles involved but finally gave up. I think it is much better to study the images, swing keys, golf thoughts and drills used by successful golfers. I feel many of these are universal. Our brain can take one of these thoughts(Ben Doyle called them "golf thoughts") and perform the appropriate function without much thought about the mechanics involved. MacDonald's exercises is one example of a solid pivot motion drill. It seems to me that in swinging any thought about doing anything with the forearm will not be helpful. It should be passive, soft, free of tension so that it can be thrown out. Since it is controlled by proximal muscles, that means the muscles in the upper arm need to be relaxed and allow the action to occur. They have to stay out of the way. If centrifugal force is causing the action, then the triggers have to allow it to happen rather than making it happen. We just need just enough fine motor control to accomplish tracing
I can actually understand the idea of a mental trigger - where one focuses one's mind on a certain body part when starting the downswing (despite HK's statement that the listed triggers are release triggers and not downstroke triggers).
Having watched that TT video many times, this is my personal perception of what TT is doing in his right arm throw action.
As you stated, it doesn't start with a body pivot action, although the body pivots reactively in response to the right arm throw action. I think that TT throws the right forearm to start the downswing - in other words, I think that his mind is focused on the right forearm. Now, that doesn't mean that the right forearm muscles activate the downswing's right upper limb action. It means that he throws his entire "right forearm" down-and-out. The first downswing muscle motion is the activation of torso muscles that adduct the right upper arm (pull the right upper arm closer to the body) so that the right elbow approximates the right hip area. Then, fractionally later, the right triceps muscle contracts vigorously to straighten the right elbow thereby throwing the right hand (and therefore club grip and left hand) down-and-out towards the ball. During this downswing motion, the right forearm muscles do not contract in order to move the right wrist/hand/fingers. The right forearm muscles only develop increased isometric tone in response to the mental thought triggering the downswing - the mental thought of "throwing the right arm" down-and-out.
Jeff.
Last edited by Jeff : 11-21-2008 at 12:02 PM.
Reason: grammatical corrections
You wrote-: "i thought TT says lower the right shoulder starting down which then forces the left hip back to where it began. his sequence being... right hip-right forearm--right shoulder-left hip."
I personally believe that you are correct to state that TT taught that approach when he recommended a body pivot-driven swing rather than his other approach - a "right arm throw" swing. In his 5-day South Carolina TGM school lesson series, he stated that his downswing started with a movement of the right shoulder downplane, which then secondarily caused the pelvis to shift-rotate towards the target, and this lower body movement then ended up evolving into a left hip clearing action. In other words, Ben Hogan thought of starting the downswing with a pelvic shift-rotation movement that secondarily causes the right shoulder to move downplane, while TT taught the opposite approach.
In other words, Ben Hogan thought of starting the downswing with a pelvic shift-rotation movement that secondarily causes the right shoulder to move downplane, while TT taught the opposite approach.
And "Hogan's approach" is Homer Kelley's Downstroke Sequence of 6-M-1 with its Pivot Delivered Power Package per 6-K-0. Also, the On Plane, Downstroke Right Shoulder Turn Lag and Cleared Right Hip of 6-B-4-C and 7-13; and, the Hip Action of 7-15 "throwing" the Right Shoulder (with its Loaded Power Package in tow) toward Impact.
For those now interested in the amplification of what I just said and in ordering The Book from The Golfing Machine, LLC http://thegolfingmachine.com/theBook/index.php, tell'em "Yoda sent me". No discount, of course, just my own continued personal satisfaction.
As far as Tom Tomasello's approach goes:
[Apologies in advance to Senators Lloyd Bentsen and Dan Quayle.
I served with Tom Tomasello.
I knew Tom Tomasello.
Tom Tomasello was a friend of mine.
And any disciple (however devoted) -- I'm not referring to you, Jeff -- who attributes to Tom an uncocking right elbow from the Top . . . is no Tom Tomasello.
Lynn does set the bar high, that is true. But TT's contributions to TGM community are many, and his teachings continue to inform and inspire!
Thanks for this, Andy R.
And that is why, after considerable internal debate and for the first time in cyberspace, we four years ago posted the Tomasello videos on this site. Albeit, with my own introductory caveat. http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=544.
There are three videos being referenced on this site. First, the Australia Series (done at the 1989 invitation of Peter Croker and the Australian PGA) supplied by Delaware Golf. Then, the subsequent Lee Dietrick Video Letter (supplied to me by Lee himself http://lynnblakegolf.com/cmps_index.php?page=pros. Finally, the 5-day Tommy Studio School video referenced in certain posts. That video was borrowed and sold without the owner's permission on several sites by a now banned member. Upon learning the facts, we closed our thread dealing with this video.
Our own Tomasello Series -- the LBG version intact with Bagger's editing and graphics -- is being distributed routinely on other sites and now belongs to the world.
Cool.
We do feel that LBG should be credited for its originating efforts, but . . . we also understand the motivating sensibilities, and that only reinforces our own dedication and sense of Mission.
But TT's contributions to TGM community are many, and his teachings continue to inform and inspire! 
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