Let's see if we can agree on certain fundamentals.
I believe that one needs to keep the power package assembly intact in the early downswing, which means that one must maintain the right flying wedge intact, while the lower body undergoes a pelvis shift rotation movement - irrespective of the downswing trigger.
Do you agree?
Here is posed photo of Hogan's swing demonstrating what I mean.
The yellow colored area represents the power package assembly and I think that it should be intact at this point in the downswing - intact despite the fact that the hips have rotated about 45 degrees to a hip squaring position, and despite the fact that the entire pelvis has shifted a little left-laterally as one puts weight on the left foot.
Now, has does a golfer get to this position? Ben Hogan states that he thinks of starting the downswing with a lower body move - a pelvis shift-rotation move (hip squaring action) that pulls the power package assembly downwards . I used to start my downswing this way, but it was problematic for me because I tended to suffer from one-or more of these problems - i) too much left-lateral hip slide; ii) a tendency to move my hips too fast and out-of-synch with my upper torso, iii) a tendency to spin my pelvis and roundhouse my upper body. I now initiate my downswing with a right shoulder throw action downplane - and this works better for me because the right shoulder throw downplane causes my pelvis to move the correct amount as a result of a transmitted force going down the spine (right shoulder moves downplane => causes the spine to develop secondary axis tilt and simultaneously produces a transmitted force that passes down the rightwards tilted spine to the pelvis => pelvis shift-rotates to a hip squaring orientation). In other words, I still end up looking like Hogan at this point in the downswing - with a squared pelvis and the power package intact and the right elbow approximated to the right hip. My power package remains intact because during the right shoulder throw action, I also isometrically contract my right arm/forearm muscles in order to maintain the right arm flying wedge angles intact.
Now, if a golfer states that he trigger-starts the downswing with a right forearm throw, I can imagine that golfer end-up looking like Hogan if the right forearm throw is i) a throw of the entire power package assembly (as an intact unit) down towards the right hip area and ii) the right forearm is in a state of isometric contraction (and not isotonic contraction, which would straighten the right elbow and prematurely release power accumulator #1). Is my description of the right forearm throw action (that initiates the downswing) representative of Tom Tomasello's approach, or is it totally different?
Jeff.
Jeff . . . not to be nitpicky (which I reckon means I'm gonna be nitpicky) . . . but the shoulders are PART OF THE POWER PACKAGE . . . Your pattern is valid BUT you are not benefiting from the entire radius via Swinging from the Feet if you aren't starting the swing from the ground up. The radius ends at the first nonlagging component closest to the ground.
Jeff . . . not to be nitpicky (which I reckon means I'm gonna be nitpicky) . . . but the shoulders are PART OF THE POWER PACKAGE . . . Your pattern is valid BUT you are not benefiting from the entire radius via Swinging from the Feet if you aren't starting the swing from the ground up. The radius ends at the first nonlagging component closest to the ground.
Jeff,
My recommendation is to not only watch the Tomasello videos but you MUST watch them multiple times (so many don not do this). From your comments, I know you haven't done that...first checkout, Tommy's number 2 Letter series video. If you would have studied that video you would not have put up the pictures of Hogan!!! and made the comments regarding keeping the flying wedges intact. For some reason, golfers make the mis-interpretation that if you throw the right forearm from top that you lose the flying wedges....not so. Watch the video (again). Reference the comment around the 14 to 15 minute mark about high speed cameras.
It's a shame you want to disprove what Tommy taught.
Jeff....btw, Tommy taught both Jodie Mudd and Sally Little the 10-20-C trigger. I'm glad you're experiencing success with that component. It sounds like you have found your swing. However, I have teaching professionals contacting me who say they're having success starting the club down with both forearms per 10-20-D. And they have tried the other trigger types.
The beauty of the Golfing Machine it's an individual Journey!!! With Lynn's site, it can finally be a group Journey!!! For so many years, it was an individual Journey, it's a shame we don't have Homer and Tommy here to share in the group journey.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 06-06-2008 at 09:27 PM.
Jeff . . . not to be nitpicky (which I reckon means I'm gonna be nitpicky) . . . but the shoulders are PART OF THE POWER PACKAGE . . . Your pattern is valid BUT you are not benefiting from the entire radius via Swinging from the Feet if you aren't starting the swing from the ground up. The radius ends at the first nonlagging component closest to the ground.
Jeff,
Watch video 5 from the Chapter series on Power....I no problem in generating superior distance with throwing the right forearm from the top. I'm surprise by how much the pivot contributes in a Right Forearm generated swing.
Send me your regular email address and I will send you a copy of Tommy's 1991 GI interview. Where Tommy talks about the right arm and pivot.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 06-06-2008 at 02:38 PM.
DG - you wrote-: "It's a shame you want to disprove what Tommy taught."
You are totally wrong in your assumption. I am actually trying to understand what Tom taught. Don't mistake my assertive questioning with the idea that I am out to disprove things. People frequently make that assumption because of the tenacity of my questions, but I actually want to understand different viewpoints, so that I can increase my breadth of golf mechanics/physics/geometry knowledge.
DG - you wrote-: "It's a shame you want to disprove what Tommy taught."
You are totally wrong in your assumption. I am actually trying to understand what Tom taught. Don't mistake my assertive questioning with the idea that I am out to disprove things. People frequently make that assumption because of the tenacity of my questions, but I actually want to understand different viewpoints, so that I can increase my breadth of golf mechanics/physics/geometry knowledge.
He shouts that at everyone and anyone that asks a question. Just read TT's magazine article and become an expert in all things tgm and TT. I really like TT videos but when a question is asked- DG throws the Delaware Golf-Tomasello Patriot Act at ya. Kelley loved questions, as does Lynn- I wonder why? btw- ignore button is great but I do get his musings in replies.
He shouts that at everyone and anyone that asks a question. Just read TT's magazine article and become an expert in all things tgm and TT. I really like TT videos but when a question is asked- DG throws the Delaware Golf-Tomasello Patriot Act at ya. Kelley loved questions, as does Lynn- I wonder why? btw- ignore button is great but I do get his musings in replies.
Blah, Blah, Blah.........just like a broken record!!!
In my case, I'm just helping golfers find the truth!!! Yeeeeeeee Hawwwwwww............
Hogan: The Magic of the Right Forearm
HK: The Magic of the Right Forearm
TT: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Blake: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Els: The Magic of the Right Forearm
Longitudinal or Radial acceleration it's All About the Right Forearm.
Are they all using the Right Forearm in the same way?
I don't think so.
What about hips?
The hips might be the single most important component of the golf swing and not all golfers automatically "use" them in the best way by using the Right Forearm to trigger the downswing as TT often says happens automatically I don't think it applies to all.
The hips might be the single most important component of the golf swing and not all golfers automatically "use" them in the best way by using the Right Forearm to trigger the downswing as TT often says happens automatically I don't think it applies to all.
The Pivot Delivers the Bent Right Elbow into Release.
The StraighteningRight Elbow Delivers the Left Arm and Club into Impact and Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position).
All while the Flat Left Wrist controls the Clubface.
DG - I have watched the lesson number 2 video and the chapter 5 video a few times.
I will now recount what I think that Tom Tomasello was saying, and you can correct me if I am wrong.
Tom was saying that one should throw the right arm at the ball, and that the body should simply get out of the way. He also talked about a push action with reference to the right upper limb, rather than a pull action. He also emphasized the point that when throwing the right arm/forearm at the ball that the right wrist will not become unhinged (neutral or palmar flexed) at impact, and that the right wrist will therefore still be bent (dorsiflexed) at impact.
OK. So, how does he power the swing in his "right arm throw action"? If the pivoting body is not pulling the right arm flying wedge unit (ala Hogan's swing style) and the body is simply getting out of the way during the right "arm throw" action, then the right arm/forearm is pushing forward while the body is getting out of the way. What muscles can "push" the right arm/forearm forward while the body is clearing out of the way? Surely, it must be the shoulder girdle muscles that adduct the right upper arm. While this is happening, the right elbow remains bent, which means that there is isometric tone in the right upper arm muscles that maintain the bent right elbow in the early/mid downswing. At a certain point, the right elbow must straighten. Now, Tom did not specify whether the right elbow straightens due to active muscle contraction of the right triceps muscle (as would occur in a hitter) or whether it is due to a passive pull from a clubshaft that is releasing. I will presume that it is the former - right triceps muscle contraction that actively straightens the right elbow (active release of power accumulator #1). He was not apparently describing a hitting action (thrust in a radial direction as in an axe handle action). I therefore presume that the active release of power accumulator #1 causes right palm pressure against preesure point #1, and that it pushes the left hand, and therefore left arm, forward (as a right arm swinger's action).
To summarise my understanding of Tom's "right arm throw" swing, the power release sequence is 4,1, 2, 3 where power accumulator #4 is powered by the right arm/forearm pushing action (performed by a pulling/shortening of the shoulder girdle muscles that adduct the right arm plus an isometric-pushing action of the right arm/forearm muscles) rather than a downswing pivot action, and where power accumulator #1 release is active (rather than passive).
Is my description accurate, or inaccurate? Feel free to "correct" me as necessary.
Yoda - you wrote-: "The Pivot Delivers the Bent Right Elbow into Release.---
The Straightening Right Elbow Delivers the Left Arm and Club into Impact and Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position)."
You don't state whether the right elbow straightening is an active or a passive phenomenon.
It is my understanding, from reading the TGM book, that in a swinger's action, the pivot delivers the entire power package assembly intact to the delivery position, and that release of the power package then happens due to the following phenomenon.
When the downswing pivot action subsides in the mid downswing, the left arm is catapulted off the chest (via the pivot-activated release of power accumulator #4) and therefore the left arm is moving towards the target with enough momentum to reach, and pass, the impact position. The right elbow then straightens passively in this scenario, with no need for any isotonic right triceps muscle action. The right triceps only has to have enough isometric tone to allow the right forearm to be driven forward so that it keeps up with the left arm, and simultaneously maintains extensor action throughout the entire downswing.
Does my description represent your understanding of a swinger's action?
In the Tom Tomasello video tapes, he talks of the two forearms pulling the entire power package down to waist level while the body clears out of the way. He then states that the "right arm hits the ball", which seemingly implies that the right elbow straightening action is an active action. Therefore, Tom Tomasello is apparently describing a 4-barrel swing action activated by the right arm throw action - in the following sequence 4, 1,2,3. Power accumulator #4 is released by the "two forearms" pulling the entire power package downwards and thereby simultaneously propelling the left arm forward (while the pivot action simply allows the body to get out of the way), and then the right elbow straightens actively releasing power accumulator #1.
Is that how you understand the TT right arm swing action that DG recommends?
Why would DG believe that TT's right arm swing action is preferable to the standard pivot-driven triple barrel swing action (4,2,3)?
btw- ignore button is great but I do get his musings in replies.
Hybrid Mode
