I am not into 'fighting". I am into sharing different perspectives. You think that they all leaning left, while I think that they are all leaning right (C7 further away from the target than L5) .
I am not into 'fighting". I am into sharing different perspectives. You think that they all leaning left, while I think that they are all leaning right (C7 further away from the target than L5) .
Jeff.
Jeff . . . I was just messing man . . . I'm not fighting either just being a mo-ron. I enjoyed the discussion . . . even though I'm now buying in . . .
Nice video and pics . . . thanks for putting them up.
I am into sharing different perspectives. You think that they all leaning left, while I think that they are all leaning right (C7 further away from the target than L5) .
Jeff.
In The Golfing Machine and in his recorded teachings, Homer Kelley never once mentioned Backstroke Spine Angle. He never once mentioned "leaning left" or "leaning right" or even "staying vertical". All he asked was that golfers understand the necessity of maintaining a fixed point at the top of the Pivot (Pivot Center / The Glossary). He recommended the Head but did not mandate it (2-H). In fact, he offered an alternative, i.e., the "point between the shoulders" (Stationary Head / The Glossary).
He expected that we readers could see the obvious validity of a Centered Arc (1-L #1 and #2) and made little bones about it in the first six editions. He simply illustrated the Standard Pivot (Photo 10-12-A #1) and placed a white marker behind his model's head (Photos 9-1-1/12). See also the Top in Photo 9-3-6. All clearly indicat that the Pivot Motion should be Centered (and emulated as depicted). As he prepared his revisions (in 1982-83) for his 7th edition (published posthumously in 2006), he realized our ineptness -- his three Authorized Instructor GSEM Classes helped here! -- and added this explicit text:
The important thing is that the true Swing Center for ALL COMPONENTS is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground, precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time. [All text effects by Homer Kelley / 2-H.]
"Swing Center" . . .
"ALL COMPONENTS" [including spine] . . .
"Precisely between the Feet."
Jeff, on your wonderful captured overhead photos of these four great golfers, please draw a vertical line from Mr. Kelley's "true Swing Center" (the Turned Head or the 'point between the shoulders') to the ground, and let's see where it lands.
Yoda - you wrote-: "All he asked was that golfers understand the necessity of a fixed point at the top of the Pivot (Pivot Center / The Glossary). He recommended the Head but did not mandate it (2-H). In fact, he offered an alternative, i.e., the "point between the shoulders" (Stationary Head / The Glossary)."
I think that the upper swing center is a better reference point for the idea of a fixed point at the top of the pivot. I think that the upper swing center usually remains more stationary than the head in a good golfer.
I don't need to draw lines on those photos for forum members to mentally picture the location of the upper swing center. It is defined as a point midway between the shoulders - which is roughly a point within the chest cavity a few inches in front of T2 vertebra. That point is about 2-4mm (actual amount dependent on computer screen resolution) south-east of the C7 blue dot in those photos. A vertical line drawn down from that "imaginary" point would hit the ground roughly in the center of their stance.
Yoda - you wrote-: "All he asked was that golfers understand the necessity of a fixed point at the top of the Pivot (Pivot Center / The Glossary). He recommended the Head but did not mandate it (2-H). In fact, he offered an alternative, i.e., the "point between the shoulders" (Stationary Head / The Glossary)."
I don't need to draw lines on those photos for forum members to mentally picture the location of the upper swing center. It is defined as a point midway between the shoulders - which is roughly a point within the chest cavity a few inches in front of T2 vertebra. That point is about 2mm south-east of the C7 blue dot in those photos.
Jeff.
Just draw the lines, Jeff.
You've made this a big deal, and it is a big deal. You've been drawing lines for some 90 posts in this thread, and I've studied and appreciated every one. Don't wimp out now . . .
I have lost confidence in my ability to accurately locate the upper swing center.
I can see the right shoulder. Now, I have to mentally "picture" where the left shoulder is located - which depends on the degree of shoulder rotation and the angle of the shoulder turn relative to the ground. I cannot clearly "picture" where the left shoulder is located in this birds-eye view where the upper torso is so spiraled. Can you offer any advice?
I have lost confidence in my ability to accurately locate the upper swing center.
I can see the right shoulder. Now, I have to mentally "picture" where the left shoulder is located - which depends on the degree of shoulder rotation and the angle of the shoulder turn relative to the ground. I cannot clearly "picture" where the left shoulder is located in this birds-eye view where the upper torso is so spiraled. Can you offer any advice?
Jeff,
I truly value your visual and textual additions to LBG. Thanks once again for your insights!
On this assignment -- thank you for your indulgence -- I gave you an explicit directive:
Draw a vertical line between either of Homer Kelley's recommended Pivot Centers, i.e., the Turned Head or the 'Point between the shoulders', and the ground. Take your choice . . . there's only a fraction of difference between the two (if that).
In other words, the pressure's off: I'm not looking for an assessment of your nouveau "Upper Swing Center" or its relation to the Left Shoulder's Rotation or the Spine's Spiral.
[Great stuff for a new thread, though. Have at it! BTW, with all due respect to your term "Upper Swing Center", Homer's term Pivot Center works better for me. There can be only ONE Central Axis in a Centered motion. Your term implies there are (at least) two: An Upper and a Lower. Now, that may well be your model (if so, please address that, too.]
For now . . .
Please just draw a vertical line between your preferred 'Homer Center' and the ground. Personally, since you've asked my advice, I'd start with a vertical line touching the left side of the Turned Head.
Yoda - here is a revised image with red lines drawn alongside the left side of the turned head.
I started to use the term lower swing center after reading the Golf Digest S&T article, where Bennett/Plummer used the term to indicate a point midway between the hip joints.
. . . 
Hybrid Mode
