Whoa, I'm not criticizing Bio-Mechanics. Far from it. I look forward to learning about your findings. I agree that the Swing should be from the "Ground Up". Completely.
My criticisms are with your belief that TGM is not about Zone 1 (the Pivot) and other of your misrepresentations of TGM concepts.
Additionally you fail to acknowledge that different Delivery Paths are supported by different Pivots. Incompatibility. Circle Path and Straight Line Path do not use the same Pivot. I think that Bio-Mechanics should account for the Players choice. But your quest to find "more Power" disregards much of the subtlety that different Pivots provide. And Zero Pivot is an option.
Daryl,
There could be a communication break down here somewhere.
TGM I'm not say that TGM doesn't employ zone 1 first.
Homer says it in black and white totally agree with him. And really like how he mentions in the book from the ground up.
Now that amazes me how he worked it out and homer was ahead of his time. I wish Homer was around today cause I would have love to worked with him and done research with him.
TGM is an amazing book and has some great stuff.
Problem is, in writing, things can come across wrong and if I have I apologise to you and everyone.
To try and communicate biomechanics and movement patterns in writing is very difficult. If i could speak verbally, I can do it on my ear and you would develop a very good understanding quickly. To do this in writing is hard one and is very hard to describe something to someone in a way, so they can develop a picture of what I'm speaking about. Not easy.
How long did it take you to develop an understanding of TGM, did you grasp it first time you picked the book up or was it a continually studies of the book and attedning education seminars.
Same with biomecahnics it will take you a while to develop a basic understanding.
In golf we need physics and geometry.
To do we achieve physics in golf.
How does physics work in human motion or how does the human body move in.
I'm trying to explain how the body moves naturally and how the body wants to create speed.
Once people understand this, then we can move onto, how do we train movement patterns and get the body to move the way it wants to naturally or designed to move to create speed.
Daryl lets remove the golf club from our hands, lets remove plane lines, angles and remove the club.
Lets look at how the body moves then lets add the club later.
What we must understand is, How the body wants to move and is designed to move.
Ask a doctor he can explain how the hips turn and shoulders turn.
I could never work out why the doctor said to me your back shouldn't hurt when you play golf. I know why now.
Hitting or swinging the body moves the same way. It may appear different with geometry added. With out geometry same moves.
Hips and shoulder turn are the same motion in hitting or swinging. When you remove the geometry.
What I'm trying to do is educate people how to create the movement patterns so you can apply TGM to it.
How does a pivot function, how do you create a pivot.
What creates hip rotation and hip rotational speed.
What creates shoulder rotations and upper body speed.
This is what I have been trying to educate people about. How do we create the above and how can we train the body to do it.
Working on plane lines on the practice fairway is going to train movement patterns, that's geometry.
Also to identify what the body is doing you have to measure the bodies movement patterns.
Hips speeds,upper body speeds and arms speed. Muscular loading, trunk stability ( If your turning around the axis of the spine) is the hips moving perpendicular to the spine are the shoulders doing the same.
If you have too much right lateral bending of the spine this effects your geometry, if the hips are sliding too much along the target line effects your geometry.
How can we apply geometry effectively if we can't move our bodies effectively in the first place.
Would it be fair to say that with some peoples golf swing issue,are from poor movement patterns. Which is effecting the way they are able to apply their geometry.
Maybe it's not homers work is the problem, maybe it's peoples movement patterns which prevent them applying TGM effectively.
Food for some thought
Last edited by bioengine : 08-10-2009 at 01:41 AM.
I'm trying to explain how the body moves naturally and how the body wants to create speed.
Once people understand this, then we can move onto, how do we train movement patterns and get the body to move the way it wants to naturally or designed to move to create speed.
Daryl lets remove the golf club from our hands, lets remove plane lines, angles and remove the club.
Lets look at how the body moves then lets add the club later.
What we must understand is, How the body wants to move and is designed to move.
Ask a doctor he can explain how the hips turn and shoulders turn.
I could never work out why the doctor said to me your back shouldn't hurt when you play golf. I know why now.
Hitting or swinging the body moves the same way. It may appear different with geometry added. With out geometry same moves.
Hips and shoulder turn are the same motion in hitting or swinging. When you remove the geometry.
What I'm trying to do is educate people how to create the movement patterns so you can apply TGM to it.
How does a pivot function, how do you create a pivot.
What creates hip rotation and hip rotational speed.
What creates shoulder rotations and upper body speed.
This is what I have been trying to educate people about. How do we create the above and how can we train the body to do it.
Working on plane lines on the practice fairway is going to train movement patterns, that's geometry.
Also to identify what the body is doing you have to measure the bodies movement patterns.
Hips speeds,upper body speeds and arms speed. Muscular loading, trunk stability ( If your turning around the axis of the spine) is the hips moving perpendicular to the spine are the shoulders doing the same.
If you have too much right lateral bending of the spine this effects your geometry, if the hips are sliding too much along the target line effects your geometry.
How can we apply geometry effectively if we can't move our bodies effectively in the first place.
Would it be fair to say that with some peoples golf swing issue,are from poor movement patterns. Which is effecting the way they are able to apply their geometry.
Maybe it's not homers work is the problem, maybe it's peoples movement patterns which prevent them applying TGM effectively.
Food for some thought
bioengine, I appreciate your effort on this topic, which hopefully can be helpful to the field.
My only question, so far, to you, with due respect, is:
How close does (especially) your swing (or those you trained) match with those you described, presumably you know what to do or apply for the best?
To me, what you mentioned, including body movements, sequences, biomechanics and so on, are "Effects", like all the mechanics under the hood of a car. Once engineerred, they react faithfully to what the driver do, pressing the acceleration paddel or the break or steering the steering wheel for example, to function.
The human body is basically well engineerred by the creator, as well. They function by reacting, in a naturally coordinated way, to what the brain tells them to do, which is the "Cause", like the driver's act. You don't really need to mess around with what under the hood to drive a car.
The body, the club and the ball move according to the physical "Law", with which you don't want to mess around, either. More control (effect oriented) means more manipulation and potentionally more interference. Instead of finding the "Effect", which can be very informative, I prefer to identify the "Cause", the acceleration paddel, the steering wheel, the gear shifter, the break paddel and so on, and let the car do what it is supposed to. Afterall, I'm not sure if those golfers of your model knew what's going on in their bodies while making a swing or a shot. They got to "do something" for sure and the point is what it is, which is unlikely what you saw. How can you see what's going on in one's head?
I love to see what's going on in the body, the club and the ball during a swing. But, to make one, I prefer to do the "Cause".
__________________ Yani Tseng, Go! Go! Go! Yani Tseng Did It Again! YOU load and sustain the "LAG", during which the "LAW" releases it, ideally beyond impact.
"Sustain (Yang/陽) the lag (Yin/陰)" is "the unification of Ying and Yang" (陰陽合一).
The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".
"Lag" is the secret of golf, passion is the secret of life.
Think as a golfer, execute like a robot.
Rotate, twist, spin, turn. Bend the shaft.
What if the 'engineering' under the hood is not really that good? All the other stuff will be a waste of time, it'll take you so long to get there if in fact you do at all? If the creator did such a good job why can't we all play off scratch?
BioMechanics, I appreciate your effort on this topic, which hopefully can be helpful to the field.
My only question, so far, to you, with due respect, is:
How close is (especially) your swing (or those you trained) match with those you described, presumably you know what to do or apply for the best?
To me, what you mentioned, including body movements, sequences, biomechanics and so on, are "Effects", like all the mechanics under the hood of a car. Once engineerred, they react faithfully to what the drive do, pressing the acceleration padel or the break or steering the steering wheel for example, to function.
The human body is basically well engineerred by the creator. They function by reacting, in a naturally coordinated way, to what the brain tells them to do, which is the "Cause", like the driver's act. You don't really need to mess around with what under the hood to drive a car.
The body, the club and the ball moves according to the physical "Law", which you don't want to mess around, either. More control (effect) means more manipulation and potentionally more interference. Instead of finding the "Effect", which can be very informative, I prefer to find the "Cause", the acceleration paddel, the steering wheel, the gear shifter, the break paddel and so on, and let the car do what it is supposed to. Afterall, I'm not sure if those golfers of your model knew what's going on in their bodies while making a swing or a shot. They got to "do something" for sure and the point is what it is, which is unlikely what you saw. How can you see what's going on in one's head?
I love to see what's going on in the body, the club and the ball during a swing. But, to make one, I prefer to do the "Cause".
If you are talking about the unconscious mind I think you may be right. And what Biomechanic teaches is exercises that train your unconscious movement patterns to become more efficient. The only other way I have heard to train these is through consciously repeating a mechanical action to create "muscle memory". This is a slow process requiring repetition after repetition.
I have no idea why the training works. I have done very little training yet it has had an almost instant and noticable impact, both to my swing and my results. Biomechanic trains the causes that lead to clubhead lag, that lead to a flat left wrist and that lead to an on plane swing. I haven't worked on any of these effects. Not one. Instead I am being trained in what causes them.
To apply your analogy a good race driver does not think about the pedals, the wheel, or the brake. A good driver sees the line they want to drive on and their body responds with the right mechanical activities to put the car on that line at the highest possible speed. It is learner drivers who have to think about gears, pedals and wheels - and they don't drive very well.
You cannot find out what happens in a top level golfers mind, except that they will tell you "very little". I remember an article where they measured Greg Norman's pre shot routine. They found that his bad shots almost always has a pre shot routine that is slightly longer than normal. His best shots come when he goes into autopilot. And you cannot be taught autopilot from another person.
Biomechanic doesn't try and measure what happens in other people's heads. What he does measure is what happens with their bodies in incredible detail. He assessesd what happens and can say what is good and what is harmful. And he has exercises that he can use to improve the good and remove what is harmful. And this is what is key to what he has to offer. He has exercises that train your body to have more efficient and effective movement patterns, which have been proven to work through lots and lots of testing. TGM has all this information on what your swing should do. Biomechanic has information on how you can do it, and exercises to teach you to do it.
It's not that this is the only way to play better golf. As Daryl has pointed out he is an example of someone who plays very good golf and has never had this training. But this is such an efficient way to improve. I mean, how much improvement would you expect from 12 hours of exercises performed over 10 weeks? Particularly if your swing completely changed from a long, upright, handsy action to a flat, short action. And all this with no instruction on setup, on grip, on plane, on backswing, on footwork, on hinge actions, on the right arm, on flat left wrist, on bent right wrist, on driving the shoulder, on weight shift, on power packages, on anything that looked like golf mechanics.
And you know what? I am sure I am learning many of these things. I am getting compression that I didn't even know existed. I must have a FLW or I wouldn't get that. I must have lag or I wouldn't get that.
Nice post Weeties. I feel the same improvement. I have not 'thought' about my full swing of late at all, just done my PST's as instructed (though I might add I do understand my faults/issues and areas that need to be improved by the PST program, I just don't consciously need to address them). Today I went out for 9 holes and shot 2 over, which for me is by far a PB. Now sure, you have good days, but it felt like my body new what to do without any swing thoughts due to the training I've been doing. My ball striking was beautiful (for me). Of course having said that last month I did lots of basic motion chipping working my hinges so my short game is pretty good too.
I'm working at both ends of the chain, just to be safe.
Nice post Weeties. I feel the same improvement. I have not 'thought' about my full swing of late at all, just done my PST's as instructed. Today I went out for 9 holes and shot 2 over, which for me is by far a PB. Now sure, you have good days, but it felt like my body new what to do without any swing thoughts due to the training I've been doing. My ball striking was beautiful (for me). Of course having said that last month I did lots of basic motion chipping working my hinges so my short game is pretty good too.
I'm working at both ends of the chain, just to be safe.
Thanks stinkler. I have been working on my short game a little. But I need to pick it up a bit. Will need to get to the range for this because I am starting to be able to hit it the distance I want (because I've been practicing with a basket in the back yard) but I am getting way more backspin that I'm used to (a non-distance ball plus I'm getting some compression) so I am coming up short a fair bit. But that is something I can work on.
And those 6-10 foot putts too. I'm realising just how critical they are. Now that I can expect to get around the green in regulation or one over.
I have not had a chance to read all of the posts. I guess my understandimg of the relationship between action/motion...physics/geometry is all screwed up. I viewed it as geometry making physics behave, kinda like a blueprint for a building. Bio when you publish something let us know. My beliefs concerning the golf stroke are based on the integrity of Homer Kelley's classic work, not my own theories but my limited understanding of his. In that sense I have nothing new to add. but I do believe that originality is nothing but judicious imitation!
If you are talking about the unconscious mind I think you may be right. And what Biomechanic teaches is exercises that train your unconscious movement patterns to become more efficient. The only other way I have heard to train these is through consciously repeating a mechanical action to create "muscle memory". This is a slow process requiring repetition after repetition.
I have no idea why the training works. I have done very little training yet it has had an almost instant and noticable impact, both to my swing and my results. Biomechanic trains the causes that lead to clubhead lag, that lead to a flat left wrist and that lead to an on plane swing. I haven't worked on any of these effects. Not one. Instead I am being trained in what causes them.
To apply your analogy a good race driver does not think about the pedals, the wheel, or the brake. A good driver sees the line they want to drive on and their body responds with the right mechanical activities to put the car on that line at the highest possible speed. It is learner drivers who have to think about gears, pedals and wheels - and they don't drive very well.
You cannot find out what happens in a top level golfers mind, except that they will tell you "very little". I remember an article where they measured Greg Norman's pre shot routine. They found that his bad shots almost always has a pre shot routine that is slightly longer than normal. His best shots come when he goes into autopilot. And you cannot be taught autopilot from another person.
Biomechanic doesn't try and measure what happens in other people's heads. What he does measure is what happens with their bodies in incredible detail. He assessesd what happens and can say what is good and what is harmful. And he has exercises that he can use to improve the good and remove what is harmful. And this is what is key to what he has to offer. He has exercises that train your body to have more efficient and effective movement patterns, which have been proven to work through lots and lots of testing. TGM has all this information on what your swing should do. Biomechanic has information on how you can do it, and exercises to teach you to do it.
It's not that this is the only way to play better golf. As Daryl has pointed out he is an example of someone who plays very good golf and has never had this training. But this is such an efficient way to improve. I mean, how much improvement would you expect from 12 hours of exercises performed over 10 weeks? Particularly if your swing completely changed from a long, upright, handsy action to a flat, short action. And all this with no instruction on setup, on grip, on plane, on backswing, on footwork, on hinge actions, on the right arm, on flat left wrist, on bent right wrist, on driving the shoulder, on weight shift, on power packages, on anything that looked like golf mechanics.
And you know what? I am sure I am learning many of these things. I am getting compression that I didn't even know existed. I must have a FLW or I wouldn't get that. I must have lag or I wouldn't get that.
Sounds good . . . do you have any before and after video? I'd be interested to see if you motion changed? Or if you were just generating more speed with the same motion?
You said . .
He has exercises that train your body to have more efficient and effective movement patterns, which have been proven to work through lots and lots of testing
I'm still a bit confused on what you measure and from what starting point? Efficient and effective movement patterns in relation to what? Effective as to what end?
Sounds good . . . do you have any before and after video? I'd be interested to see if you motion changed? Or if you were just generating more speed with the same motion?
I've uploaded a video I took in my backyard on 1 July, and then another tonight. There are already shots from April so that will give you something to compare against.
The 1 July 09 shots were after doing about a month of PST. Tonight would be about 2 and a half months, I estimate about 20 sessions which would take about 30 minutes each.
Actually I'll be interested myself in having a look - as I've said I have no pattern that I'm working towards, this stuff has just come out of the exercises.
I will add a proviso that all of these are taken without a ball, just practice swings. I have no idea how much this changes when I'm actually addressing a ball.
I will add a proviso that all of these are taken without a ball, just practice swings. I have no idea how much this changes when I'm actually addressing a ball.
]
The ball changes everything. One of Homers biggest revelations and the basis of much of his theory. He didnt steer dandelions in his yard but he did when confronted by a golf ball. Steering and Throw Away. I look like George Knudson in my yard........if only I could look that way in the presence of a ball. I have hundreds of video examples to prove it. Pathetic though they are.
Homers advice , obtuse though it was, is very practical.
Hybrid Mode
