Daryl, it was a crazy and heated debate but I understand the majority of what you have to say and I have learned alot from JE. Its nice to hear what a player does, what a player has tried, and his personal feels to support it. You have to remember that JE learned from Doyle WAY back and as we know, homer's ideals changed slightly from edition to edition. What he learned then as a player may be just a little different from today. Either way, he is very knowledgeable - as are you.
I do agree that CF will pull in a straight line and that at some point, if left 'unbridled', the clubhead may pass the hands and the forearms would roll over, however, with proper hinge action, this can be reduced or avoided.
In my own mind, the only way I can see the over roll occuring is if the pivot cannot support the accumulator dump into the ball. Then we would see this happen.
Daryl, it was a crazy and heated debate but I understand the majority of what you have to say and I have learned alot from JE. Its nice to hear what a player does, what a player has tried, and his personal feels to support it. You have to remember that JE learned from Doyle WAY back and as we know, homer's ideals changed slightly from edition to edition. What he learned then as a player may be just a little different from today. Either way, he is very knowledgeable - as are you.
I do agree that CF will pull in a straight line and that at some point, if left 'unbridled', the clubhead may pass the hands and the forearms would roll over, however, with proper hinge action, this can be reduced or avoided.
In my own mind, the only way I can see the over roll occuring is if the pivot cannot support the accumulator dump into the ball. Then we would see this happen.
This isn't a headed debate. It's far from debate and it looks less harmless than it is.
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Either way, he is very knowledgeable - as are you.
He is not very knowledgeable. I'm only somewhat knowledgeable. Give John E. credit for a great career and effort and ability.
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I do agree that CF will pull in a straight line and that at some point, if left 'unbridled', the clubhead may pass the hands and the forearms would roll over, however, with proper hinge action, this can be reduced or avoided.
"Roll" is imparted by the rotating torso and is not an actual roll of the hands. The Sweetspot of the Clubhead does not rotate around the shaft, but the shaft rotates around the sweetspot. "Rhythm" is Holding both Lever Assemblies to the same basic R.P.M. throughout the Stroke while overtaking all other Components at a steady, even rate.
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The following is a great example of what I see as a scary problem.
What is Accumulator Dump? This is the kind of Gibberish that anyone knowledgeable of TGM would cringe when hearing. See the following quote.
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6-M-1 . Then the Accumulators must move very rapidly toward their “In-Line” Position. But none should actually arrive (lose all their Lag and Drag until well after Impact. Also see 6-H-0.
Where does HK use the word "DUMP". "Dump" is johns misrepresentation of the concept of accumulator release. His professional Playing Career has lent him credibility so when he says these things, people believe him but are getting the wrong understanding of TGM.
The phrase "Accumulator Dump" is an invention. It's a phantom argument. There is a fine line here between "Misrepresentation" and "Lack of Knowledge".
Daryl, just curious. Why did you run from Erickson's site deleing all your posts while closing the door?
Erickson is in fact very knowledgeable. His knowledge does not limit itself within a book - he has lived the book on tour and found pure swinging wanting in his case. He has studied great ball strikers and found an alternative hitting pattern that probably does not fit your TGM version. That does not mean he is not knowledgeable - on the contrary, he has something extra to offer.
Daryl, just curious. Why did you run from Erickson's site deleing all your posts while closing the door?
Erickson is in fact very knowledgeable. His knowledge does not limit itself within a book - he has lived the book on tour and found pure swinging wanting in his case. He has studied great ball strikers and found an alternative hitting pattern that probably does not fit your TGM version. That does not mean he is not knowledgeable - on the contrary, he has something extra to offer.
Hitting is a TGM Term. It means that Right Arm Thrust, not CF, Uncocks the Left Wrist. There are no other versions to my knowledge, however there are thousands of Stroke Pattern Variations.
So, is "Accumulator Dumping" a TGM Term or is he making it up as he goes along?
No one ran. You're making more of it that it was. I told John that if all he wanted to do was brow beat TGM and it's adherents then I wouldn't be a part of the discussion. I had to ask if he's purposely misrepresenting TGM for another motive or is he un-knowledgeable about TGM?
I'm not the one opening a can of worms here. I'm not interested in discussing Johns views nor do I care. Styles wants to ask everyone's opinions on Johns theory, not me. Then he gets bent out of shape if the response is negative? Have you read anything by Styles supporting Johns views? I asked him to post in the "Lab" but he refuses. That's where "new frontiers" type questions belong. No?
So, is "Accumulator Dumping" a TGM Term or is he making it up as he goes along?
"What you load is what you dump". Ben Doyle - GSED, the 1st, no less.
Accumulating is loading and the subsequent releasing of the accumulated forces is dumping. Not exact TGM terminology but a very effective description of what actually takes place, nevertheless.
I suspect that you knew that already, of course, but it just did not suit your purpose to say so.
I have tried very hard to stay out of this thread but your attitude to those who do not feast at your table is something you might like to address.
You have much to offer, and we are all grateful for that, but the energy expended in alienating those you perceive to be in opposition would be far better spent on their conversion.
Both GPStyles and Daryl are both valuable contributors to this forum and I enjoy reading their posts. When you are both searching for the same goal, there is no reason to be at odds with each other.
Somtimes we use (instructors) different terminology. For example, I once gave a golf clinic to a group of bankers and borrowed some terminology from A.I. Billy McKinney to explain Power Accumulators: Earn It (Accumulation,, Loading), Save It (Storage, Delivery), and then Spend It (Release). It is all about your presentation...something both of you can "bank" on.
"What you load is what you dump". Ben Doyle - GSED, the 1st, no less.
Accumulating is loading and the subsequent releasing of the accumulated forces is dumping. Not exact TGM terminology but a very effective description of what actually takes place, nevertheless.
I suspect that you knew that already, of course, but it just did not suit your purpose to say so.
I have tried very hard to stay out of this thread but your attitude to those who do not feast at your table is something you might like to address.
You have much to offer, and we are all grateful for that, but the energy expended in alienating those you perceive to be in opposition would be far better spent on their conversion.
Did Homer Kelley use that Term? Actually, no, I didn't know that Ben Doyle said that. I have his tapes, DVD's, I've had 2 lessons with Ben Doyle and I've talked to him on the Phone many times and he has never said to me that Release is "Dumping" and I wouldn't describe my Release as "Dumping". But I haven't a clue what that means even if Ben Doyle coined the term unless I asked him to explain it. I would describe my Release as a "Sequentially Flowing Throw". But I haven't adopted my description of "feel" as a TGM Term. Does that make sense to you? As difficult as it is, I try not to assume I understand a concept without extensive collaboration, sometimes over years. Even then, applying it, is a completely different learning experience. I didn't go to TGM school.
What do you mean "Feast at your Table"? Are you saying that in addition to thousands of available stroke patterns, that TGM concepts themselves are open for a variety of equally valid interpretations?
Burner, it's odd that Ben Doyle said that. During my first lesson, Ben broke a tee in half and pushed it into the ground on a rearward leaning angle so that only a very tiny tip of the tee remained above ground. He told me to to use a chipping stroke and drive the tee into the ground without touching a single blade of grass. I said: "impossible". He took the club out of my hand, then, using a Pitching length Swing he not only drove the tee underground but did so without touching a single blade of grass as he continued with an almost full finish. Whoa. He gave the club back to me, and with a chipping stroke I hit every blade of grass around the tee without ever touching the tee. He told me I should learn to do that with a full swing.
Is the skill level and precision Impact needed for that test, best described by "Dumping"?
Lets proceed with dignity and mutual respect, everyone deserves that after all (except Bucket and Mike O who came over last weekend and put lipstick and fishnets on my dog Buster, who's walking real weird too these days, but I digress).
Lynn took that photo of Homer whirling that balsa wood clubhead around from the second AI class I think. I believe it had a screw in its sweetspot, COG. Lynn would know what the deal was with that demonstration. Below is Alex Sloan's take on it from the first AI class.
So does unbridled CF produce an over roll? Slice's answer was great, thanks for that. We missed a chance to talk about it too cause you guys where doing other things sadly but ........What do you think?
Did Homer Kelley use that Term? Actually, no, I didn't know that Ben Doyle said that. I have his tapes, DVD's, I've had 2 lessons with Ben Doyle and I've talked to him on the Phone many times and he has never said to me that Release is "Dumping" and I wouldn't describe my Release as "Dumping". But I haven't a clue what that means even if Ben Doyle coined the term unless I asked him to explain it.
I don't believe that Mr Kelley used the term either. He was very precise with his written and spoken word according to legend. However, I am not aware that he forbade his students from adopting ways of expressing themselves to their students in a manner they considered the most expedient to get the message across. The message rather than the messenger being the important item.
Originally Posted by Daryl
What do you mean "Feast at your Table"? Are you saying that in addition to thousands of available stroke patterns, that TGM concepts themselves are open for a variety of equally valid interpretations?
"Feast at your table" is an analogy. I used it in relation to those who wholly subscribe your view: as opposed to those who do not and, dare I add, sometimes are made to suffer for it.
Originally Posted by Daryl
Burner, it's odd that Ben Doyle said that.
On an occasion, perhaps, when Mr Kelley's terminology was proving difficult to grasp. On the other hand, Mr Doyle's expression may have been, at that time, a little more succinct.
Originally Posted by Daryl
During my first lesson, Ben broke a tee in half and pushed it into the ground on a rearward leaning angle so that only a very tiny tip of the tee remained above ground. He told me to to use a chipping stroke and drive the tee into the ground without touching a single blade of grass. I said: "impossible". He took the club out of my hand, then, using a Pitching length Swing he not only drove the tee underground but did so without touching a single blade of grass as he continued with an almost full finish. Whoa. He gave the club back to me, and with a chipping stroke I hit every blade of grass around the tee without ever touching the tee. He told me I should learn to do that with a full swing.
Is the skill level and precision Impact needed for that test, best described by "Dumping"?
The methods of expression used should depend more on the person receiving the information, I think, than the person giving it. But, I don't think "dumping" would have been a term of any relevance to that excercise anyhow.
"Gentlemen, Generals please, there'll be no fighting in the War Room".
The idea that CF produces an over roll is not Lag's originally anyways . Havent we all thought that at one point or another? Its as old as golf itself, isnt it? For ages golfers as they improved developed hooks via a over roll of the hands and clubface. Didnt Hogan think that a Hook was a natural result of a good golf swing or something to that effect. I take my internet name from a similar predicament I had for a decade or so. It sure seemed natural to me back then, when I was a junior golfer.
My question was an ernest one. No disrespect intended at all. There is much I admire about Lag's writing. We learn by discussing. That is my sole objective here.
I believe you could have woken Hogan up in the middle of the night and he could still stripe one. Im open to answers of all kinds. Maybe Horizontal Hinging in itself is a constraint to CF? Although Homers balsa wood clubhead on a string demonstration would suggest otherwise.
Hybrid Mode
