The problem is that a straight clubface hitting the ball on this out-to-in swing path doen't make it go straight, but results in a pull. So I guess the clubface has to be a little open, but not so much that it results in a slice? Maybe it's the D-plane that makes it go straight occationally ?(Which I don't know anything about).
In this instance, you club face needs to be square to the line of flight, not your plane line. I assume that you are speaking of iron shots, where you hit the ball before low point. If the face is square to the plane line traced on the ground, you will get a pull, probably a pull hook. In any case, you have to square the face up more than you have been in order to eliminate the fade/slice.
I am by no means an expert and am speaking from my experience. I play with an open plane line and hit the ball straight when I get my face squared to the target line (not the plane line), and hit fade/slices or pulls when I don't. Another fault of mine is to allow my head to move forward in the swing resulting in a plane line that is even more to the left than I intended and moves everything forward. That will also keep me from squaring the club face as needed, resulting in either weak fades or pulls.
Last edited by rprevost : 10-11-2010 at 01:06 PM.
Reason: accuracy
In this instance, you club face needs to be square to the line of flight, not your plane line. I assume that you are speaking of iron shots, where you hit the ball before low point. If the face is square to the plane line traced on the ground, you will get a pull, probably a pull hook. In any case, you have to square the face up more than you have been in order to eliminate the fade/slice.
I am by no means an expert and am speaking from my experience. I play with an open plane line and hit the ball straight when I get my face squared to the target line (not the plane line), and hit fade/slices or pulls when I don't. Another fault of mine is to allow my head to move forward in the swing resulting in a plane line that is even more to the left than I intended and moves everything forward. That will also keep me from squaring the club face as needed, resulting in either weak fades or pulls.
I probably have the same problems as you mention here (and some more). Yes,it is mostly with irons, but I have a couple of shots with a 2 hybrid that were "wonderful" allthough the divot said otherwise.
1) As I mentioned before, An outside in swing that hits the toe. Does it feel like a powerful shot? Hard to answer. Put some dry erase on the ball and check the marks on your iron face so you can see.
2) Assuming a centered strike, a ball hit before low point, need a low point plane line that points left of the target(for righties) and a face pointing at the target. This is because when the ball is actually struck, the club head is still moving downward, outward and forward. That's the direction we need to be at the target for a straight shot.
I can assure you if your divot is 'actually' 20 or 30 degrees to the left, the only way you are going to get a straight ball at the target will be to hit the ball on the toe.
2) Assuming a centered strike, a ball hit before low point, need a low point plane line that points left of the target(for righties) and a face pointing at the target. This is because when the ball is actually struck, the club head is still moving downward, outward and forward. That's the direction we need to be at the target for a straight shot.
Having a really hard time here. Please help.
In your example:
1. The ball is struck before Low Point.
2. Low Point is Down Plane from Impact Point (assumed for practical purposes to be on the Target Line, though actually slightly inside it).
3. Impact and Low Point both lie in the same Clubhead orbit and on the face of the same Inclined Plane. In fact, "Plane" lines may be drawn through each that are parallel, the Low Point Plane Line being further "down" than the Impact Plane Line (and therefore further "out"). In which case . . .
4. The Low Point Plane Line lies below the Impact Plane Line.
Here's my question:
If Impact occurs prior to Low Point, how can the Low Point Plane Line (tangent to the orbit) be "inside" -- Above Plane -- the Impact Plane Line (chord across the orbit)?
2. Low Point is Down Plane from Impact Point (assumed for practical purposes to be on the Target Line, though actually slightly inside it).
3. Impact and Low Point both lie in the same Clubhead orbit and on the face of the same Inclined Plane. In fact, "Plane" lines may be drawn through each that are parallel, the Low Point Plane Line being further "down" than the Impact Plane Line (and therefore further "out"). In which case . . .
4. The Low Point Plane Line lies below the Impact Plane Line.
Here's my question:
If Impact occurs prior to Low Point, how can the Low Point Plane Line (tangent to the orbit) be "inside" -- Above Plane -- the Impact Plane Line (chord across the orbit)?
Ok. To be more clear, I should have said impact separation would be on the target line. Fair enough.
The reality is that the impact separation line is not parallel to the low point plane line.
Here are a couple pics:
It's quite possible that I am using the phrase plane line incorrectly. If the ball is struck before low point under all the conditions you mentioned, the direction of the club into the ball is to the right of the low point plane every time.
Hopefully the pictures help and if my use of terminology is incorrect, I do apologize.
Ok. To be more clear, I should have said impact separation would be on the target line. Fair enough.
The reality is that the impact separation line is not parallel to the low point plane line.
Here are a couple pics:
It's quite possible that I am using the phrase plane line incorrectly. If the ball is struck before low point under all the conditions you mentioned, the direction of the club into the ball is to the right of the low point plane every time.
Hopefully the pictures help and if my use of terminology is incorrect, I do apologize.
Thanks for your drawing. Despite your statement that "the Clubhead is still moving downward, outward and forward" through Impact -- words I have lived by for many years and which led me to believe we referring to the same geometrical model -- it is now evident that we're talking 'apples and oranges'.
As you have indicated, we have an entirely different conception of the term 'Plane Line'. Until we come to grips with that, we have no business attempting to differentiate Impact versus Low Point Plane Lines, much less Square versus Open or Closed Plane Lines.
To wit:
You have illustrated an Open-Open Plane Line (10-5-D). Not being familiar with your model and terminology, I assumed a Square Plane Line (10-5-A), i.e., toward the Target. With the Clubface aligned per 2-J-1, this will produce a "Push" Line of Flight (see Photo 10-5-D and description in 11-5-D). Hence, the "straight shot" result you referred to in your post. But, in reality, it is a 'Pushed' Shot to the right of the Open Impact Plane Line (and its parallel Low Point Plane Line).
I guess all I can do here is ask you to define what you mean by "Low Point Plane Line"? Then, maybe we will be better able to understand one another.
Here's the way it looks in my world:
In every geometrically correct Stroke, the Clubhead Path from Impact to Low Point -- assuming Impact occurs prior to Low Point -- is 'Inside-Out' (relative to the Impact Plane Line). This is true even with an 'Outside-In' Stroke (Plane Line Open to the Target Line) because Impact and Low Point are on the same Plane and that Plane is Inclined. It matters not how the Base Line (Plane Line) of the Plane intersects the Target Line, i.e., Square, Open or Closed.
Then, because the Low Point Plane Line (tangent to the Circle) is Down Plane from the parallel Impact Plane Line (chord to the Circle), it must always remain 'outside' it, never 'inside it (again, assuming a geometrically correct Stroke, even when that Stroke is 'Outside-In'). Therefore, with a Square Impact Plane Line, the likewise Square Low Point Plane Line can never point "left of the target".
So, summarizing the procedure I thought we were dealing with, namely:
1. A Square Impact Plane Line, i.e., one that is aligned to the Target;
2. A ball positioned on that Impact Plane Line and prior to Low Point (and thus struck on the Downstroke);
3. A parallel Low Point Plane Line located, by definition, Down Plane from the Impact Plane Line; then . . .
The Low Point Plane Line can never point left of the Target Line.
Thank you for that. Let's look at the world another way as well.
Originally Posted by Yoda
Thanks for your drawing. Despite your statement that "the Clubhead is still moving downward, outward and forward" through Impact -- words I have lived by for many years and which led me to believe we referring to the same geometrical model -- it is now evident that we're talking 'apples and oranges'.
As you have indicated, we have an entirely different conception of the term 'Plane Line'. Until we come to grips with that, we have no business attempting to differentiate Impact versus Low Point Plane Lines, much less Square versus Open or Closed Plane Lines.
To wit:
You have illustrated an Open-Open Plane Line (10-5-D). Not being familiar with your model and terminology, I assumed a Square Plane Line (10-5-A), i.e., toward the Target. With the Clubface aligned per 2-J-1, this will produce a "Push" Line of Flight (see Photo 10-5-D and description in 11-5-D). Hence, the "straight shot" result you referred to in your post. But, in reality, it is a 'Pushed' Shot to the right of the Open Impact Plane Line (and its parallel Low Point Plane Line).
I guess all I can do here is ask you to define what you mean by "Low Point Plane Line"? Then, maybe we will be better able to understand one another.
Here's the way it looks in my world:
In every geometrically correct Stroke, the Clubhead Path from Impact to Low Point -- assuming Impact occurs prior to Low Point -- is 'Inside-Out' (relative to the Impact Plane Line). This is true even with an 'Outside-In' Stroke (Plane Line Open to the Target Line) because Impact and Low Point are on the same Plane and that Plane is Inclined. It matters not how the Base Line (Plane Line) of the Plane intersects the Target Line, i.e., Square, Open or Closed.
Then, because the Low Point Plane Line (tangent to the Circle) is Down Plane from the parallel Impact Plane Line (chord to the Circle), it must always remain 'outside' it, never 'inside it (again, assuming a geometrically correct Stroke, even when that Stroke is 'Outside-In'). Therefore, with a Square Impact Plane Line, the likewise Square Low Point Plane Line can never point "left of the target".
So, summarizing the procedure I thought we were dealing with, namely:
1. A Square Impact Plane Line, i.e., one that is aligned to the Target;
2. A ball positioned on that Impact Plane Line and prior to Low Point (and thus struck on the Downstroke);
3. A parallel Low Point Plane Line located, by definition, Down Plane from the Impact Plane Line; then . . .
The Low Point Plane Line can never point left of the Target Line.
I can not disagree with anything above that you have mentioned. Excellently stated and quite clear as I sift through my book (which is already coming apart).
My concern is, why should the impact plane line be a chord of the circle and not tangent to the circle and any chord that connects impact and low point is not parallel to a tangent of the circle from the same low point. This is true by definition of what a chord is.
A chord is "A line that links two points on a circle or curve only covering the inside of the circle."
for example:
Let's look at a secant because it helps with visualization.
A secant is, "A line that intersects a curve or circle at two points that extends to infinity." Basically, it's a chord but the line extend outside the circle to infinity.
and a tangent:
It "A line that contacts an arc or circle at only one point."
I define low point plane line as the line tangent to the point where low point occurs. I would also define the impact plane line using the same definition (a line tangent to the point where impact occurs).
Why would one plane line have a different definition than the other?
The only way to get a chord/secant parallel to a tangent is to move the point of low point. If one of the point remains constant, you will never get a chord/secant parallel to a tangent.
Consider the following (I'll use secants because it helps the viewer with visualization. Remember, secants are chords of the circle but with the lines extended to infinity)
In each picture, point (P) remains constant and point (Q) moves closer to it. Point (P) represents low point and point (Q) represents impact.
Clearly you can see that at no point is any chord parallel to the low point plane line. When (P) and (Q) are the same point then it becomes a tagent.
Can I move point (P) and make a parallel chord? Sure.
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