I know what you mean Kev, I dont want come off as being "nit picky" or anything but then D should remove the type saying "Elbow Plane" and re name it the "Shaft Plane" cause it isnt an Elbow Plane.
And then that isnt Diane or Hogan or Brian Gay then at Address or at Impact either and all Alignments are derived from Impact Alignments after all. The RFFW and the On Plane Right Elbow being Impact Alignments make them relevant to the discussion of any Alignment! No?
Agreed OB. I typed that in a hurry as I was running late for work. As soon as I hit send I knew it was a terribly worded response and didn't come across as what I was trying to convey.
I believe in the right forearm being on plane and it's magic 100%!
No offense my friend.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Yup, except the Right Elbow is not on the Shaft Plane and therefor neither is the Right Forearm. So no Right Forearm Flying Wedge structure there and since the Right Forearm is not pointing at the Base Line/Plane Line, the ability to Trace the Plane Line is severely handicapped.
OB, It's obvious that the Right Shoulder Cannot Reach the Elbow Plane. It's also obvious that the Shaft Plane passes through a Point on the Body where the Right Elbow would touch. That Point is a Reference Point for one of the Plane Angle Variations in TGM. It's called the Elbow Plane.
The problem is with the Book, not my analysis. The Book depicts the Elbow Plane as a Plane the Elbow Traces, not the Hands. That alone makes this Plane different and odd in comparison to any other Plane Angle Variation in the Book. In other words, the Elbow rests on the Plane Throughout the Stroke. The Hands and Clubshaft are raised above this plane during the Backstroke and must be Lowered to the Plane during the Downstroke. This is not a Rigid Power Package Stroke as outline and discussed in Chapter 6. So, if one is using the Elbow Plane, one must bend the Right Elbow to Raise the Club during the Backstroke and Unbend the Right Elbow during the Downstroke. It results in a CONCAVE Plane (ala-Ben Doyle). It's not Anti-Golfing Machine if one merely regards TGM as an explanation of the Golf Swing. But the Nature of this "Flexible" Power Package is not compatible with The Magic of the Right Forearm, Extensor Action, etc, etc. Any explanation of Hogans Stroke as far as concerns TGM, should include this kind of Elbow-Plane - Power Package analysis.
Sooooo, needless to say, an Elbow Plane swing is Pivot Controlled Hands and the #3 PP cannot trace the Plane-line. Body Angles must be adjusted for Clubhead - Ball intersection.
ANYONE-EVERYONE who bends and unbends the Right Elbow from Start-up to Release will be Swinging on the Elbow Plane.
Basically assuming you are employing a TSP, the Right Shoulders so called "right" Plane Angle will be the one that most closely approaches the Elbow Plane, assuming you have an Elbow Plane to get to.
Let me explain, all Alignments are derived from Impact Alignments! So to answer your question properly I must go back to Fix. You must adjust you machine at Impact Fix properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So many of us TGM'rs dont do this and we MUST. Get the Right Arm on Plane with the desired amount of shaft lean and clubface angle for the shot at hand. Then get the Left Wrist on the club and Level. This will require some adjustment to Knee Bend, Waist Bend, Head Position etc. These are the key Machine Adjustments that if not done at Fix or done dynamically during the motion will destroy your Impact Alignments!!!!!! Far better to do them at Fix than dynamically.
From there you have choices in regard to which TSP angle you are using assuming you are even using a TSP. But as I mentioned above Homers definition of a "Standard" Shoulder Turn is Flat going back and On Plane going down. But all of the TSP angles are On Plane by definition. Some are higher than others. Homer preferred an Angle that more closely approached the Elbow Plane or Shaft Plane.
I know the wording makes it all so confusing. Basically, ideally, get your Machine adjusted properly at Fix, then take your Right Shoulder back as Flat to the ground as is comfortable. If you get your Pressure Points on this same Plane Angle you are on a TSP! A Flat one at that. You are now all systems go to use your Right Shoulder to take the Pressure Points and the Power Package down this TSP angle which you have pre selected. Axis Tilt via Hip Action prior to Startdown will further tilt the Right Shoulder to a Plane Angle lower than your Flat back Shoulder Turn took it to. This gets you even closer to the Elbow Plane. That is the ideal if there is one. Although Homer would never talk in such terms there being so many usable patterns. Most every golfer comes in on a Higher Plane, especially the over the top types who Startdown with their Arms instead of their Right Shoulder and cross line it, outside to in.
The Pivot has to lead in Startdown but it tends to get in the way of the Right Elbow and redirect the Power Package OUT and over the Plane. Homers genius allowed him to identify this problem and its solution. Research Cleared Right Hip and Axis Tilt in connection with the topic at hand, the TSP and TGM opens up like the readable book it often isnt. This is what I see in Yoda's swing, Hogan's swing.
Dear OB1,
Obviously, you mis-perceive this matter. You've been hanging with the Bucket too long and the grease has finally gone to your brain.
Allow my Vapid response to help clear things up.
First and Foremost is your misconception about the TSP. It's not a fixed Plane. Its angle varies by Club Length. The Shorter the Club Length, the Steeper the Angle.
OB1: "OK daryl you jerk, then if the TSP angle is different for each club, then what does a Flat Shoulder turn mean?"
Daryl: It simply means any angle flatter than a Rotated shoulder turn.
OB1: "OK daryl, smarty pants, then how does one know how flat to turn your shoulders for any specific club length?"
Daryl: Each Clubs Length changes the angle of the Right Forearm at Address. Then, using Extensor Action Takeaway, your Right Shoulder will be directed to the appropriate height and Location per that angle (Magic of the Right Forearm). Longer Clubs will result in a "Lower Right Shoulder" and Shorter Clubs will raise the Right Shoulder Higher.
So, given a short enough shaft, its possible for a Properly applied Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn to direct the Right Shoulder to the Same Location as a Rotated Shoulder Turn. But it's still called a TSP if it arrive On Plane by Geometrically aligned forces and not a simple 90 degree shoulder-spine rotation.
Isn't it obvious to everyone that while using the Elbow Plane, that one cannot have an On-Plane Downstroke Shoulder Turn? EVER. Someone let 'Bucket' know.
Clear, you mis-perceive this matter. You've been hangingwith the Bucket too long and the grease has finally gone to your brain.
Allow my Vapid response to help clear things up.
First and Foremost is your misconception about the TSP. It's not a fixed Plane. Its angle varies by Club Length. The Shorter the Club Length, the Steeper the Angle.
OB1: "OK daryl you jerk, then if the TSP angle is different for each club, then what does a Flat Shoulder turn mean?"
Daryl: It simply means any angle flatter than a Rotated shoulder turn.
OB1: "OK daryl, smarty pants, then how does one know how flat to turn your shoulders for any specific club length?"
Daryl: Each Clubs Length changes the angle of the Right Forearm at Address. Then, using Extensor Action Takeaway, your Right Shoulder will be directed to the appropriate height and Location per that angle (Magic of the Right Forearm). Longer Clubs will result in a "Lower Right Shoulder" and Shorter Clubs will raise the Right Shoulder Higher.
So, given a short enough shaft, its possible for a Properly applied Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn to direct the Right Shoulder to the Same Location as a Rotated Shoulder Turn. But it's still called a TSP if it arrive On Plane by Geometrically aligned forces and not a simple 90 degree shoulder-spine rotation.
Isn't it obvious to everyone that while using the Elbow Plane, that one cannot have an On-Plane Downstroke Shoulder Turn? EVER. Someone let 'Bucket' know.
Dingdong,
Is there more mechanical advantage to having your right shoulder on plane or having the right forearm moving at right angles to the axis of rotation? Pick one and tell me why . . .
I'm not quite sure I ever said that the right shoulder could be on plane with the elbow plane . . . however . . . . you have yet to put up anybody that is a living breathing human being that stays on the TSP . . . I await your submission.
Is there more mechanical advantage to having your right shoulder on plane or having the right forearm moving at right angles to the axis of rotation? Pick one and tell me why . . .
I'm not quite sure I ever said that the right shoulder could be on plane with the elbow plane . . . however . . . . you have yet to put up anybody that is a living breathing human being that stays on the TSP . . . I await your submission.
L8RT8Rnutz.
Dear Mr. Small Animal Abuser,
There is More Mechanical Advantage with a Properly executed Downstroke Acceleration Sequence which requires an On-Plane Right Shoulder than there is with solely the Right Forearm moving at Right Angles to its Center of Rotation. The first, is an accelerating Force. The second, a force you describe, a simple Lever Extension of the Rotating Body, is really great for "Dork Does Ping-Pong".
Truly,
Dingdong
Here is one Human being. Square Shoulder Plane, Flat Backstroke and On-Plane Square Shoulder Plane Downstroke Through Impact to Follow through. This is proof that a Human can Swing on the much steeper Square Shoulder Plane. Then, is it really hard to believe that one can Swing as easily on a TSP? Also, look at the Bend in his Right Arm. 90 degrees at the Top, Halfway down and Impact. This is proof of the Rigid Power Package and Downstroke Acceleration Sequence.
Agreed OB. I typed that in a hurry as I was running late for work. As soon as I hit send I knew it was a terribly worded response and didn't come across as what I was trying to convey.
I believe in the right forearm being on plane and it's magic 100%!
No offense my friend.
Kevin
No offense taken Kev. We're good man, but who are other nut bars on this thread?
You know, Rigid Power Package Dude and 90 degrees to the axis of Rotation Man.
you have yet to put up anybody that is a living breathing human being that stays on the TSP . . . I await your submission.
L8RT8Rnutz.
Agreed. A TSP Angle (of which there are many not one) is a Startdown Plane Angle. The Elbow Plane (the same angle as the Shaft Plane assuming the Right Elbow is on it) is a "through the ball" Plane Angle. Its nearly impossible to get the TSP on the Elbow Plane. Shifts in Plane Angle do happen. Shifts are hazardous but Tracing is what its all about. See 1-L-18.
All of this TSP stuff is really a fine tuning thing. Most of us are not on plane to begin with or if we are, not on a TSP at Top. The TSP concept is all about the Right Shoulder taking the Power Package down the Inclined Plane Angle in Startdown (that is whatever Plane Angle the Right Shoulder is Aligned to and assuming that the Pressure Points are on this same plane).
Words fail us when attempting to describe geometry. Maybe one of the biggest problems with Homers writings.
His Power Package is Rigid = He doesn't Change the Bend In his right Arm during the Downstroke. Don't over-bend the Arm during the Backstroke. Keep the left arm about 45 degrees off the chest will help.
His clubshaft is on a Square Shoulder Plane.
The #2 & #3 PP are ON Plane
His Right Shoulder is On Plane.
Why is his Right Shoulder On Plane and his Power Package Rigid?
Because as his Pivot forces the Right Shoulder Down-Plane On Plane, his hands will be moved On Plane Down-Plane. This occurs because the Power Package is able to drop from the shoulder sockets and doesn't rely on unbending the right arm (a move that throws the Hands off-plane).
Pre-Impact Photo: Notice also that His Right Forearm Flying Wedge is On-Plane. On the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend at 90 degrees to the Left Arm Wedge.
Quote:
6-B-3-0-1 THE FLYING WEDGES The Clubhead may appear to move in a an arc around and outside the Hands when related to the Left Arm – the very basic Left Arm Flying Wedge. But when related to the Right Forearm, it appears to move “On Plane” with the Right Forearm, at its normal rigid angle (Bent Right Wrist) – the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. So – except in Sections 1 and 3 (Chapter the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the Left Hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane – the Right Forearm and the Clubshaft are, in like manner, positioned on the plane of the Right Wrist Bend AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE LEFT ARM PLANE. That is the precision assembly and alignment of the Power Package structure and is mandatory during the entire motion. Hitting or Swinging. Study 4-D-1 regarding “Grip” and “Flat Left Wrist”. Also see 7-3. Then, ideally, the Left Wrist is always Flat and the Right Wrist is always Level (4-A-1, 4-B-1).
So?? What is learned in this Photo Sequence and TGM?
Keep a Rigid Power Package.
Use the Pivot to start the Right Shoulder On Plane during Start Down.
Allow (don't force) the Power Package to drop from the Shoulder Sockets (Down-stroke Acceleration Sequence).
Performing the above will keep all Power Package Components On Plane driven by the PIVOT via the Right Shoulder.
THE GREAT ILLUSION: The Arms don't travel down carrying the Hands with them. The Power Package Lowers as a result of the Hands being Forced Down-plane. Geometric Golf. Geometrically Oriented Linear Force.
Don't try to create a force using upper body muscle power. Force dictating alignments (rubbish). Rather, use alignments that will bring about an acceleration sequence.
Dear O.B. and Bucket, It cannot be this way with the Elbow Plane.
Agreed. A TSP Angle (of which there are many not one) is a Startdown Plane Angle. The Elbow Plane (the same angle as the Shaft Plane assuming the Right Elbow is on it) is a "through the ball" Plane Angle. Its nearly impossible to get the TSP on the Elbow Plane. Shifts in Plane Angle do happen. Shifts are hazardous but Tracing is what its all about. See 1-L-18.
All of this TSP stuff is really a fine tuning thing. Most of us are not on plane to begin with or if we are, not on a TSP at Top. The TSP concept is all about the Right Shoulder taking the Power Package down the Inclined Plane Angle in Startdown (that is whatever Plane Angle the Right Shoulder is Aligned to and assuming that the Pressure Points are on this same plane).
Words fail us when attempting to describe geometry. Maybe one of the biggest problems with Homers writings.
Wow, I've been arguing the merits of the TSP on other forums, and how much the "feel" of staying on it has helped revive my game. Now it's a myth? I've got to learn to keep my mouth shut...
I have been taking the "plane shifts are hazardous" argument literally. I guess when I look at my model swing, Brian, I see here is a plane shift, if only a small one.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
D, I like those drawings, lots of effort there. Thanks. Couple of thoughts
-"Rigid Power Package" or Rigid Right Elbow angle . Arent you really talking about a Delayed Release in Accumulator #1? You've got to Release it at some point prior to Impact. You cant hang on all the way to Impact, Steering , fore right! The latest Release Point being Automatic Snap Release.
-In regard to your fixed white Plane Line. I wish the 1-L-18 animation would resurface. We lost it during the change over to the new site format. Basically the white line in your drawings never shifts its Plane Angle. Despite the fact that Jason clearly shifts his Plane Angle. To get your drawing into a TGM way of looking at Plane Shifts you must start in the first frame with the white line running along Jason's Shaft Plane. He is not using an Elbow Plane there anyways. The next frame would show him to be slightly off plane with the white line pointing outside the Base Line , Plane Line. Etc etc. You could align your white line to the Sweetspot plane too for further relevance but the shaft is a reasonable approximation of the Plane that his force is traveling. All of this would show a Plane that shifts Angles UP then Down with some off plane meanderings. I agree though he does get back onto the TSP in Downstroke and does appear to stay on it late into Release or Impact even. Interesting. If he set his Right Arm on Plane at Address his Plane Angle changes would be lessened.
the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the Left Hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane – the Right Forearm and the Clubshaft are, in like manner, positioned on the plane of the Right Wrist Bend AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE LEFT ARM PLANE. That is the precision assembly and alignment of the Power Package structure and is mandatory during the entire motion. Hitting or Swinging. Study 4-D-1 regarding “Grip” and “Flat Left Wrist”. Also see 7-3. Then, ideally, the Left Wrist is always Flat and the Right Wrist is always Level (4-A-1, 4-B-1).
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