Quote:
- If the right shoulder cannot reach this plane.
- one situation is swinging on the elbow plane.
If you choose the elbow plane, then can the downstroke clubshaft plan be the elbow plane? Therefore the right shoulder no need to redirect to the TSP?
Also if swing back based on elbow plane then at the top should the right shoulder not on the TSP?
Can a hitter hit on both plane, directly straight down?
At address and through the ball for structural (RFFW) and tracing (the straight plane line) reasons the Right Forarm is ideally on the same plane as the clubshaft's lie angle.
The Right Forearm is said to be on this plane when the Right Elbow is on this plane. This is the Elbow Plane one employs through Impact. To accomplish this and a Level Left Wrist, adjustments must be made to your Head position, knee bend, waist bend, distance from the ball etc. These adjustments, if not done at Impact Fix will necessitate an identical adjustment dynamically when you are swinging......not the best thing for your consistency. This is a major cause of faulty Impact Alignments.
The Turned Shoulder Plane (TSP) is a line drawn from the Plane Line through the Right Shoulder when it's "turned" to its position at Top. This Plane Angle is dependent on many things including the type of Shoulder Turn employed. Generally the Flatter the Shoulder Turn going back the closer this Plane Angle is to the Shaft Plane or Elbow Plane. The Turned Shoulder Plane allows the Right Shoulder to take the Power Package down the TSP towards the Plane Line in Startdown. An On Plane move of the Power Package via the Right Shoulder referred to as an On Plane Shoulder Turn. Flat back and On Plane coming down. The shoulders dont turn on a single plane for the Standard Shoulder Turn anyways.
However the TSP is not the same Plane Angle as the Elbow Plane and so the Plane Angle of the Inclined Plane must shift to this lower Elbow Plane angle prior to Impact. This is achieved as easily as it was to shift to higher Plane Angle in the Backstroke if you Addressed the ball with a Level Left Wrist at Fix. It just sort of happens as the Right Elbow unbends, the reverse situation of Right Forearm Pickup. If you Pickup you must let it down, CF helps out in this regard.
The reference in 10-6-B to "any Plane Shift being hazardous" relates to a selection of an Inclined Plane Angle other than a TSP angle at Top which would necessitate a shift back to a TSP angle prior to an On Plane Shoulder Turn in Startdown.
Logic holds that any plane shift is hazardous yes but some shifting does happen. Keeping it to a minimum is what its all about while using your Right Shoulder to take the Power Package down plane as the initial move in Startdown. For this to happen you have to employ a TSP angle. The closer to the Elbow Plane angle the better.
How do I know if the Rt shoulder is on the right plane in the downswing?
Excellent Question........................
This is what Happens when your Right Shoulder, Clubshaft and Hands are on the same plane at Start down.
Without pulling the club with your arms, i.e. the club being pulled down by the Hip-Slide-Pivot, your Right Elbow will Forcibly move Down Plane. Your Right Elbow will feel like its DRIVEN down-Plane. When you first accomplish this, your Right Elbow may Slam into your Ribcage. Once you do that a few times, and adjust for Plane Line Tracing, your Elbow will be Driven to its Release Location with-out effort.
How do I know if the Rt shoulder is on the right plane in the downswing?
Hey Jerry
Basically assuming you are employing a TSP, the Right Shoulders so called "right" Plane Angle will be the one that most closely approaches the Elbow Plane, assuming you have an Elbow Plane to get to.
Let me explain, all Alignments are derived from Impact Alignments! So to answer your question properly I must go back to Fix. You must adjust you machine at Impact Fix properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So many of us TGM'rs dont do this and we MUST. Get the Right Arm on Plane with the desired amount of shaft lean and clubface angle for the shot at hand. Then get the Left Wrist on the club and Level. This will require some adjustment to Knee Bend, Waist Bend, Head Position etc. These are the key Machine Adjustments that if not done at Fix or done dynamically during the motion will destroy your Impact Alignments!!!!!! Far better to do them at Fix than dynamically.
From there you have choices in regard to which TSP angle you are using assuming you are even using a TSP. But as I mentioned above Homers definition of a "Standard" Shoulder Turn is Flat going back and On Plane going down. But all of the TSP angles are On Plane by definition. Some are higher than others. Homer preferred an Angle that more closely approached the Elbow Plane or Shaft Plane.
I know the wording makes it all so confusing. Basically, ideally, get your Machine adjusted properly at Fix, then take your Right Shoulder back as Flat to the ground as is comfortable. If you get your Pressure Points on this same Plane Angle you are on a TSP! A Flat one at that. You are now all systems go to use your Right Shoulder to take the Pressure Points and the Power Package down this TSP angle which you have pre selected. Axis Tilt via Hip Action prior to Startdown will further tilt the Right Shoulder to a Plane Angle lower than your Flat back Shoulder Turn took it to. This gets you even closer to the Elbow Plane. That is the ideal if there is one. Although Homer would never talk in such terms there being so many usable patterns. Most every golfer comes in on a Higher Plane, especially the over the top types who Startdown with their Arms instead of their Right Shoulder and cross line it, outside to in.
The Pivot has to lead in Startdown but it tends to get in the way of the Right Elbow and redirect the Power Package OUT and over the Plane. Homers genius allowed him to identify this problem and its solution. Research Cleared Right Hip and Axis Tilt in connection with the topic at hand, the TSP and TGM opens up like the readable book it often isnt. This is what I see in Yoda's swing, Hogan's swing.
Basically assuming you are employing a TSP, the Right Shoulders so called "right" Plane Angle will be the one that most closely approaches the Elbow Plane, assuming you have an Elbow Plane to get to.
Let me explain, all Alignments are derived from Impact Alignments! So to answer your question properly I must go back to Fix. You must adjust you machine at Impact Fix properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So many of us TGM'rs dont do this and we MUST. Get the Right Arm on Plane with the desired amount of shaft lean and clubface angle for the shot at hand. Then get the Left Wrist on the club and Level. This will require some adjustment to Knee Bend, Waist Bend, Head Position etc. These are the key Machine Adjustments that if not done at Fix or done dynamically during the motion will destroy your Impact Alignments!!!!!! Far better to do them at Fix than dynamically.
From there you have choices in regard to which TSP angle you are using assuming you are even using a TSP. But as I mentioned above Homers definition of a "Standard" Shoulder Turn is Flat going back and On Plane going down. But all of the TSP angles are On Plane by definition. Some are higher than others. Homer preferred an Angle that more closely approached the Elbow Plane or Shaft Plane.
I know the wording makes it all so confusing. Basically, ideally, get your Machine adjusted properly at Fix, then take your Right Shoulder back as Flat to the ground as is comfortable. If you get your Pressure Points on this same Plane Angle you are on a TSP! A Flat one at that. You are now all systems go to use your Right Shoulder to take the Pressure Points and the Power Package down this TSP angle which you have pre selected. Axis Tilt via Hip Action prior to Startdown will further tilt the Right Shoulder to a Plane Angle lower than your Flat back Shoulder Turn took it to. This gets you even closer to the Elbow Plane. That is the ideal if there is one. Although Homer would never talk in such terms there being so many usable patterns. Most every golfer comes in on a Higher Plane, especially the over the top types who Startdown with their Arms instead of their Right Shoulder and cross line it, outside to in.
The Pivot has to lead in Startdown but it tends to get in the way of the Right Elbow and redirect the Power Package OUT and over the Plane. Homers genius allowed him to identify this problem and its solution. Research Cleared Right Hip and Axis Tilt in connection with the topic at hand, the TSP and TGM opens up like the readable book it often isnt. This is what I see in Yoda's swing, Hogan's swing.
Dear OB1,
Obviously, you mis-perceive this matter. You've been hanging with the Bucket too long and the grease has finally gone to your brain.
Allow my Vapid response to help clear things up.
First and Foremost is your misconception about the TSP. It's not a fixed Plane. Its angle varies by Club Length. The Shorter the Club Length, the Steeper the Angle.
OB1: "OK daryl you jerk, then if the TSP angle is different for each club, then what does a Flat Shoulder turn mean?"
Daryl: It simply means any angle flatter than a Rotated shoulder turn.
OB1: "OK daryl, smarty pants, then how does one know how flat to turn your shoulders for any specific club length?"
Daryl: Each Clubs Length changes the angle of the Right Forearm at Address. Then, using Extensor Action Takeaway, your Right Shoulder will be directed to the appropriate height and Location per that angle (Magic of the Right Forearm). Longer Clubs will result in a "Lower Right Shoulder" and Shorter Clubs will raise the Right Shoulder Higher.
So, given a short enough shaft, its possible for a Properly applied Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn to direct the Right Shoulder to the Same Location as a Rotated Shoulder Turn. But it's still called a TSP if it arrive On Plane by Geometrically aligned forces and not a simple 90 degree shoulder-spine rotation.
Isn't it obvious to everyone that while using the Elbow Plane, that one cannot have an On-Plane Downstroke Shoulder Turn? EVER. Someone let 'Bucket' know.
Clear, you mis-perceive this matter. You've been hangingwith the Bucket too long and the grease has finally gone to your brain.
Allow my Vapid response to help clear things up.
First and Foremost is your misconception about the TSP. It's not a fixed Plane. Its angle varies by Club Length. The Shorter the Club Length, the Steeper the Angle.
OB1: "OK daryl you jerk, then if the TSP angle is different for each club, then what does a Flat Shoulder turn mean?"
Daryl: It simply means any angle flatter than a Rotated shoulder turn.
OB1: "OK daryl, smarty pants, then how does one know how flat to turn your shoulders for any specific club length?"
Daryl: Each Clubs Length changes the angle of the Right Forearm at Address. Then, using Extensor Action Takeaway, your Right Shoulder will be directed to the appropriate height and Location per that angle (Magic of the Right Forearm). Longer Clubs will result in a "Lower Right Shoulder" and Shorter Clubs will raise the Right Shoulder Higher.
So, given a short enough shaft, its possible for a Properly applied Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn to direct the Right Shoulder to the Same Location as a Rotated Shoulder Turn. But it's still called a TSP if it arrive On Plane by Geometrically aligned forces and not a simple 90 degree shoulder-spine rotation.
Isn't it obvious to everyone that while using the Elbow Plane, that one cannot have an On-Plane Downstroke Shoulder Turn? EVER. Someone let 'Bucket' know.
Dingdong,
Is there more mechanical advantage to having your right shoulder on plane or having the right forearm moving at right angles to the axis of rotation? Pick one and tell me why . . .
I'm not quite sure I ever said that the right shoulder could be on plane with the elbow plane . . . however . . . . you have yet to put up anybody that is a living breathing human being that stays on the TSP . . . I await your submission.
Is there more mechanical advantage to having your right shoulder on plane or having the right forearm moving at right angles to the axis of rotation? Pick one and tell me why . . .
I'm not quite sure I ever said that the right shoulder could be on plane with the elbow plane . . . however . . . . you have yet to put up anybody that is a living breathing human being that stays on the TSP . . . I await your submission.
L8RT8Rnutz.
Dear Mr. Small Animal Abuser,
There is More Mechanical Advantage with a Properly executed Downstroke Acceleration Sequence which requires an On-Plane Right Shoulder than there is with solely the Right Forearm moving at Right Angles to its Center of Rotation. The first, is an accelerating Force. The second, a force you describe, a simple Lever Extension of the Rotating Body, is really great for "Dork Does Ping-Pong".
Truly,
Dingdong
Here is one Human being. Square Shoulder Plane, Flat Backstroke and On-Plane Square Shoulder Plane Downstroke Through Impact to Follow through. This is proof that a Human can Swing on the much steeper Square Shoulder Plane. Then, is it really hard to believe that one can Swing as easily on a TSP? Also, look at the Bend in his Right Arm. 90 degrees at the Top, Halfway down and Impact. This is proof of the Rigid Power Package and Downstroke Acceleration Sequence.
you have yet to put up anybody that is a living breathing human being that stays on the TSP . . . I await your submission.
L8RT8Rnutz.
Agreed. A TSP Angle (of which there are many not one) is a Startdown Plane Angle. The Elbow Plane (the same angle as the Shaft Plane assuming the Right Elbow is on it) is a "through the ball" Plane Angle. Its nearly impossible to get the TSP on the Elbow Plane. Shifts in Plane Angle do happen. Shifts are hazardous but Tracing is what its all about. See 1-L-18.
All of this TSP stuff is really a fine tuning thing. Most of us are not on plane to begin with or if we are, not on a TSP at Top. The TSP concept is all about the Right Shoulder taking the Power Package down the Inclined Plane Angle in Startdown (that is whatever Plane Angle the Right Shoulder is Aligned to and assuming that the Pressure Points are on this same plane).
Words fail us when attempting to describe geometry. Maybe one of the biggest problems with Homers writings.
Yup, except the Right Elbow is not on the Shaft Plane and therefor neither is the Right Forearm. So no Right Forearm Flying Wedge structure there and since the Right Forearm is not pointing at the Base Line/Plane Line, the ability to Trace the Plane Line is severely handicapped.
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